PVP
Moderator: Lords of The Realm
-
Telumehtar Ben'Kiriath
- Dasarian
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:19 pm
- Location: Houston
Firstly allow me to spell out the difference in PKing and PvPing.
PKing like someone said earlier is really about a bunch of assholes trying to ruin the fun of other gamers through killing their characters. Very rarely is it about skill or challenge, and very often is it about having fun at the expense of others, and trying to inflict the maximum amount of damage with the least amount of chance at retibution.
Now before someone asks "Isn't a good PvPer going to maximize his chances of escaping?" I'll say maybe.... However what I'm refering to in PKing is things like 5 on 1s where the 1 would be hard pressed to present any challenge to the PKers, the PKers are able to cover each other with heals and resses, and what not... they bring down 5 people's worth of firepower down on one... they often do it sneakily while the victim is engaged with a monster or some other activity which requires attention.
There is NO challenge or sign of skill in those kinds of activities.
PvP, however would be about taking on an equivilent or near equivilent opponent and besting them by out thinking/reflexing them. It very rarely about intentionally ruining another players experience.. in fact the best PvPers I've met are usually more than willing to help the victim get back on their feet and then making them scoot, than they are about keeping their victims down. Afterall, if you are constantly wiping clean the competition, then the only thing you are doing is shortening the pool of potential good fights and entertainment.
Now I personally enjoy PvP but not across the board in every medium. I generally disliked PvP in UO, and only got active into via becoming an Anti-PK so as to protect others with worse connections/ non-combative skill sets than myself. I was VERY good at it too(often able to hold at bay 5+ PKs for 30 minutes while enforcements arrived, and on numbers of occasions able to kill 2 or 3 of them before help arrived), but in general I didn't get the thrills or the excitement or entertainment people claim they get. My SOLE reason for engaging in it was to protect those who could not protect themselves so that we could maintain perhaps what some consider more mundane and peaceful activities, such as animal hunting, crafts, and socializing at the taverns. The number reason I never liked PvP in UO though... the interface sucked ass for it and it allowed an ENORMOUS advantage to those players who could shell out bucks for fast machines and connections (like me at school on a T1).
EQ, I disliked PvP because again the interface sucked ass for it. Hell there are situations where the interface limited me in PvE (Player vs Environment)... why the hell would I want to beat myself up over dealing with that while taking on smarter opponents.
NWN unfortunately has many of the same problems as the previous two games hence I don't see NWN as being that great a platform to do PvP on. There is too much discrepancy in machine speed and connection speed that can be used to advantage. The D&D ruleset as implemented in NWN is horribly easy to exploit and turn into very bad advantages... ESPECIALLY with how the network code treats invisible players currently (other clients are not properly updated all the time when an invisble player is in their area... to see this simply keep track of a party member who is moving about invisble on a dungeon crawl. You will notice their "pin" on the map does not always coincide with where you see them on the screen and furthermore I've seen characters who look to be standing next to me but then uninvis at the far edge of the screen). My guess is in their attempt to prevent hacks from giving clients the ability to auto-see invis they are only giving partial feeds of the invisible player's whereabouts so that other clients can read that feed.
There are games however that I do enjoy PvP very much in. Most of them however are built with PvP in mind... where as most fantasy games are built with PvP as an afterthought and like the above three examples... it shows and it shows in very bad light.
PKing like someone said earlier is really about a bunch of assholes trying to ruin the fun of other gamers through killing their characters. Very rarely is it about skill or challenge, and very often is it about having fun at the expense of others, and trying to inflict the maximum amount of damage with the least amount of chance at retibution.
Now before someone asks "Isn't a good PvPer going to maximize his chances of escaping?" I'll say maybe.... However what I'm refering to in PKing is things like 5 on 1s where the 1 would be hard pressed to present any challenge to the PKers, the PKers are able to cover each other with heals and resses, and what not... they bring down 5 people's worth of firepower down on one... they often do it sneakily while the victim is engaged with a monster or some other activity which requires attention.
There is NO challenge or sign of skill in those kinds of activities.
PvP, however would be about taking on an equivilent or near equivilent opponent and besting them by out thinking/reflexing them. It very rarely about intentionally ruining another players experience.. in fact the best PvPers I've met are usually more than willing to help the victim get back on their feet and then making them scoot, than they are about keeping their victims down. Afterall, if you are constantly wiping clean the competition, then the only thing you are doing is shortening the pool of potential good fights and entertainment.
Now I personally enjoy PvP but not across the board in every medium. I generally disliked PvP in UO, and only got active into via becoming an Anti-PK so as to protect others with worse connections/ non-combative skill sets than myself. I was VERY good at it too(often able to hold at bay 5+ PKs for 30 minutes while enforcements arrived, and on numbers of occasions able to kill 2 or 3 of them before help arrived), but in general I didn't get the thrills or the excitement or entertainment people claim they get. My SOLE reason for engaging in it was to protect those who could not protect themselves so that we could maintain perhaps what some consider more mundane and peaceful activities, such as animal hunting, crafts, and socializing at the taverns. The number reason I never liked PvP in UO though... the interface sucked ass for it and it allowed an ENORMOUS advantage to those players who could shell out bucks for fast machines and connections (like me at school on a T1).
EQ, I disliked PvP because again the interface sucked ass for it. Hell there are situations where the interface limited me in PvE (Player vs Environment)... why the hell would I want to beat myself up over dealing with that while taking on smarter opponents.
NWN unfortunately has many of the same problems as the previous two games hence I don't see NWN as being that great a platform to do PvP on. There is too much discrepancy in machine speed and connection speed that can be used to advantage. The D&D ruleset as implemented in NWN is horribly easy to exploit and turn into very bad advantages... ESPECIALLY with how the network code treats invisible players currently (other clients are not properly updated all the time when an invisble player is in their area... to see this simply keep track of a party member who is moving about invisble on a dungeon crawl. You will notice their "pin" on the map does not always coincide with where you see them on the screen and furthermore I've seen characters who look to be standing next to me but then uninvis at the far edge of the screen). My guess is in their attempt to prevent hacks from giving clients the ability to auto-see invis they are only giving partial feeds of the invisible player's whereabouts so that other clients can read that feed.
There are games however that I do enjoy PvP very much in. Most of them however are built with PvP in mind... where as most fantasy games are built with PvP as an afterthought and like the above three examples... it shows and it shows in very bad light.
I have to say I disagree with NWN not being a good medium for pvp. While it may not be class balanced, the possibilities , particulary with a caster, to attack in 100's of different ways, which could be countered by 100's of different defence strategies make it a very good medium to me. Take a cleric or wizard for example. You could spend hours choosing your buffs vs offensive spells, and your choice will probably make or break the fight. The corruption of nwn pvp is the localvault character and I dont think i need to tell you why. Take nwn in contrast to UO- How many effective strategies are there really? Not many. Pvp'ers find a few tricks that work and stick with them. The possibilities for melees are a little less elaborate in nwn, but the feats and things are enough to make it pretty interesting. It could definately be better for the melees, but then again...mellees are just so darned tough in nwn, they dont really need it. I also like nwn because it is not quite so gear-based as EQ or UO. In EQ, gear=power...period. But in nwn, levels make more of a difference than gear, again particulary with casters and the ability to land a spell.
I hate to cut this off before ive said what I had intended-- RL issues demand some attention-- ill finish in a while.
Have to run-- Ill come back in finish in a while.
A wolf-pack attack is definately ugly, but the best defence against a wolf-pack is to run with a pack of your own. Thats what Mmorpg's are supposed to be all about...From what part of "massive multiplayer" do people derive soloing. Soloing is risky in pve and a deathwish in pvp against numbers w/o the element of surprise, and even that will only get you so far. Its a risk vs reward issue. You may gain more exp on your own, but if the situation gets out of control, youre pretty much going to go down."However what I'm refering to in PKing is things like 5 on 1s where the 1 would be hard pressed to present any challenge to the PKers, the PKers are able to cover each other with heals and resses, and what not... they bring down 5 people's worth of firepower down on one"
I hate to cut this off before ive said what I had intended-- RL issues demand some attention-- ill finish in a while.
Have to run-- Ill come back in finish in a while.
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent.
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent.
-
Telumehtar Ben'Kiriath
- Dasarian
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:19 pm
- Location: Houston
I wasn't even refering to the local vault characters in as far as PvP is concerned.. I was talking about server vault.
Furthermore the D&D ruleset(from the books) also isn't the issue I have with PvP in this medium rather the ENGINE implementation of those rules. I actually think the base ruleset is actually pretty well tuned for PvP type encounters.
My issue with NWN is an ENGINE issue. Differences in Machine speed and connection speed are amplified due to how the ENGINE of NWN handles them. Admittedly even in the best PvP games DESIGNED for PvP(of which in NWN it was an afterthought) machine speed and connection speed will play an issue but usually there are steps taken to help reduce the discrepancies.
As far as "wolf packs" are concerned... just because a game is "massively multiplayer" doesn't mean you can be surrounded by half a dozen of your best friends at ALL times. In UO the problem my community had was often solo hunters of DEER and ANIMALS, or lumber choppers or miners (not risky by PvE standards for sure and VERY much inside the roleplayed context of things) were being set upon by these wolf packs. Tell me what fairness or challenge is there in taking 5 Grandmaster mages/swordsman/other combat skilled fighters and besetting an individual craftsperson?
I'm sorry Windy but while many here hail your presence as being a good thing I remain leary primarily because of the calloused attitudes "PvPers" take when they use lines like "Well its a MMORPG, so you should be in MM groups for protection." Too many times have I heard that line when PKers who emote things like raping the corpses of their victims, using 101 cusswords, and commiting other emoted lewd acts, want to justify their playstyle and force a playstyle on other people that they may not like.
While many of these games are perhaps best "conquered" from the Massively Multiplayer standpoint there are many other ways to play them and play them with success depending on your goals.
I knew several people in UO who NEVER picked up a weapon, ran financial empires of merchants and were happy and content with that lot in the game and oddly enough these people who are in no way shape or form a good combat challenge were some of the most honed after by the PKs... not for the challenge but because the PKs knew that by killing them at the right time they could waste several RL hours of work in the game. They very often spent a large portion of their online time alone working on various tradeskills which to do in a group would most likely be boring and counter productive since speaking often interfered with maximum production of items.
At any rate, your definition of Massively Multiplayer is a flawed, and misused one by the very PK community I detest and you claim to detest as well. It is also somewhat funny that you should use this when you yourself are playing a solo assassin in a Multiplayer game. I would suggest you be more careful in your wording lest some think that you are trying to dictate to others how they should be played.
Furthermore I find NWN to be a horrible medium for PvP because of the lack of options in counter attacking a threat precisely such as Windy(and I'm using Windy as an example simply cause she is most well known and "visible" PvPer on Dasaria). Windy essentially has no weaknesses to attack. No supply lines to limit her resources, no home to lay siege to, and per your choosing can simply disappear and not be available to hunt down. Admittedly the lack of a Varana for the "bad guys" to log into and work in and develop their own society is partly to blame for this, but Windy is taking full advantage of this hole to augment her strength without providing new weaknesses in which the players might solve and use against her.
In fact I find it rather un-RPed that she uses Daris' resources via secondary craftspersons to supply her and leave them fairly untracable. Even if you have to do it on purpose, leaving clues behind and making this a mystery to be solved would be a 100 times more fun and RPed than simply logging in, stalking a prey, killing him/her and then logging out which to date seems to be the story I've heard reported on these boards.
Again this secondary character providing things removes an angle of attack against her which is not very realistic and furthermore stinks of the very hypocrisy I've seen in other PKers and their clans who hide behind the guise of "RP". For the time being I tolerate your explanations and the fact that she uses the same resources as us even when they should be denied her, and I tolerate the "assassinations" she commits because I value a good story of which she seems to have been accepted by a portion of the community as being a part of, but I remain leary and un-won so far by the "reasons" you choose to play this character, and as such will continue to hold you at arms length and with distrust from a RL perspective as well as an IC one. Aside from a few well written accounts of Windy's history, I have seen very little in game that you have provided that makes this an equitable Roleplaying experience, and instead simply see you using RP as an excuse to PK. No story is being furthered. No other ROLES are being created in fighting this threat, or solving this mystery. All we have are people loading up True Sight upon seeing you log in which might not be very RPish from their standpoint but I can hardly blame them since you have provided NO OTHER MEANS to track Windy and stop her.
Perhaps you are the victim of now 7 years of online playing and dealing with PKers, but I have found it often safer and more enjoyable to my entertainment to distrust anyone who promotes PvP in a world which was doing fairly well without it and then attributing it to "RP". In otherwords Windy, like the conversation we held about your first assassination, I remain leary of your intentions and true value to the community and without a more consistant story line, number of appearances(so that an equal chance to fight back against this threat is present), and in general behavior (the out burst on the General forum thread was very unbecoming of someone trying to smooth over their presence as an RPed villain), I will remain so.
In short, the oblong compaign you wage with Windy is PRECISELY why I think NWN as a PvP engine fails so gloomily and as such it takes increased player effort to make it into a tolerable or fun PvP engine... and so far I have yet to see ANY player on several server which I play, do it well.
Furthermore the D&D ruleset(from the books) also isn't the issue I have with PvP in this medium rather the ENGINE implementation of those rules. I actually think the base ruleset is actually pretty well tuned for PvP type encounters.
My issue with NWN is an ENGINE issue. Differences in Machine speed and connection speed are amplified due to how the ENGINE of NWN handles them. Admittedly even in the best PvP games DESIGNED for PvP(of which in NWN it was an afterthought) machine speed and connection speed will play an issue but usually there are steps taken to help reduce the discrepancies.
As far as "wolf packs" are concerned... just because a game is "massively multiplayer" doesn't mean you can be surrounded by half a dozen of your best friends at ALL times. In UO the problem my community had was often solo hunters of DEER and ANIMALS, or lumber choppers or miners (not risky by PvE standards for sure and VERY much inside the roleplayed context of things) were being set upon by these wolf packs. Tell me what fairness or challenge is there in taking 5 Grandmaster mages/swordsman/other combat skilled fighters and besetting an individual craftsperson?
I'm sorry Windy but while many here hail your presence as being a good thing I remain leary primarily because of the calloused attitudes "PvPers" take when they use lines like "Well its a MMORPG, so you should be in MM groups for protection." Too many times have I heard that line when PKers who emote things like raping the corpses of their victims, using 101 cusswords, and commiting other emoted lewd acts, want to justify their playstyle and force a playstyle on other people that they may not like.
While many of these games are perhaps best "conquered" from the Massively Multiplayer standpoint there are many other ways to play them and play them with success depending on your goals.
I knew several people in UO who NEVER picked up a weapon, ran financial empires of merchants and were happy and content with that lot in the game and oddly enough these people who are in no way shape or form a good combat challenge were some of the most honed after by the PKs... not for the challenge but because the PKs knew that by killing them at the right time they could waste several RL hours of work in the game. They very often spent a large portion of their online time alone working on various tradeskills which to do in a group would most likely be boring and counter productive since speaking often interfered with maximum production of items.
At any rate, your definition of Massively Multiplayer is a flawed, and misused one by the very PK community I detest and you claim to detest as well. It is also somewhat funny that you should use this when you yourself are playing a solo assassin in a Multiplayer game. I would suggest you be more careful in your wording lest some think that you are trying to dictate to others how they should be played.
Furthermore I find NWN to be a horrible medium for PvP because of the lack of options in counter attacking a threat precisely such as Windy(and I'm using Windy as an example simply cause she is most well known and "visible" PvPer on Dasaria). Windy essentially has no weaknesses to attack. No supply lines to limit her resources, no home to lay siege to, and per your choosing can simply disappear and not be available to hunt down. Admittedly the lack of a Varana for the "bad guys" to log into and work in and develop their own society is partly to blame for this, but Windy is taking full advantage of this hole to augment her strength without providing new weaknesses in which the players might solve and use against her.
In fact I find it rather un-RPed that she uses Daris' resources via secondary craftspersons to supply her and leave them fairly untracable. Even if you have to do it on purpose, leaving clues behind and making this a mystery to be solved would be a 100 times more fun and RPed than simply logging in, stalking a prey, killing him/her and then logging out which to date seems to be the story I've heard reported on these boards.
Again this secondary character providing things removes an angle of attack against her which is not very realistic and furthermore stinks of the very hypocrisy I've seen in other PKers and their clans who hide behind the guise of "RP". For the time being I tolerate your explanations and the fact that she uses the same resources as us even when they should be denied her, and I tolerate the "assassinations" she commits because I value a good story of which she seems to have been accepted by a portion of the community as being a part of, but I remain leary and un-won so far by the "reasons" you choose to play this character, and as such will continue to hold you at arms length and with distrust from a RL perspective as well as an IC one. Aside from a few well written accounts of Windy's history, I have seen very little in game that you have provided that makes this an equitable Roleplaying experience, and instead simply see you using RP as an excuse to PK. No story is being furthered. No other ROLES are being created in fighting this threat, or solving this mystery. All we have are people loading up True Sight upon seeing you log in which might not be very RPish from their standpoint but I can hardly blame them since you have provided NO OTHER MEANS to track Windy and stop her.
Perhaps you are the victim of now 7 years of online playing and dealing with PKers, but I have found it often safer and more enjoyable to my entertainment to distrust anyone who promotes PvP in a world which was doing fairly well without it and then attributing it to "RP". In otherwords Windy, like the conversation we held about your first assassination, I remain leary of your intentions and true value to the community and without a more consistant story line, number of appearances(so that an equal chance to fight back against this threat is present), and in general behavior (the out burst on the General forum thread was very unbecoming of someone trying to smooth over their presence as an RPed villain), I will remain so.
In short, the oblong compaign you wage with Windy is PRECISELY why I think NWN as a PvP engine fails so gloomily and as such it takes increased player effort to make it into a tolerable or fun PvP engine... and so far I have yet to see ANY player on several server which I play, do it well.
Im not even going to respond Tel.
You managed to turn tins nice question into a resurrection of the other two long and tired "i dont like windy because X." Lets keep it on the topic.
Im sitting here talking person to person about pvp in general, not justifying Windy's actions and motives.
You managed to turn tins nice question into a resurrection of the other two long and tired "i dont like windy because X." Lets keep it on the topic.
Im sitting here talking person to person about pvp in general, not justifying Windy's actions and motives.
The smiles that win, the tints that glow,
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent.
But tell of days in goodness spent,
A mind at peace with all below,
A heart whose love is innocent.
-
Jehannum
- Lord of the Realms
- Posts: 2470
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:53 pm
- Location: The Big City of Lula, Georgia
In light of the re-run of the other thead, Ill re-run my post to bring it to an end.
Good god. Give it freaking rest. She has been online twice in two months, killed half a dozen people and people write novels on how bad it pisses them off. At some point its just redundant and ridiculous. And that point for me was about page two of the last thread.
ADVICE ABOUT RIDING A DEAD HORSE
Author Unknown---edited by Jeh to fit NWN
Dakota tribal wisdom says that "when you discover you are
riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount."
Contrary to the proper Dakota tribal wisdom just above, our folks seem to approach the issue in this manner:
1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Saying things like "This is the way we always have ridden this horse".
4. Appointing a special player-run committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other servers to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the level requirement to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a cleric team to ressurect the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in today's MMORPG environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead".
11. Hire NPC Wizards to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat".
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a study to see if monks can ride dead horses better.
16. Buy a haste potion to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better and faster" dead.
18. Form a discussion forum to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse is not real, but is an illusion casted by Peribo from Gnomish Wonderation.
And finally, when all else fails to solve the problem:
21. Promote the dead horse into a DM Position and ban the rider.
Good god. Give it freaking rest. She has been online twice in two months, killed half a dozen people and people write novels on how bad it pisses them off. At some point its just redundant and ridiculous. And that point for me was about page two of the last thread.
ADVICE ABOUT RIDING A DEAD HORSE
Author Unknown---edited by Jeh to fit NWN
Dakota tribal wisdom says that "when you discover you are
riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount."
Contrary to the proper Dakota tribal wisdom just above, our folks seem to approach the issue in this manner:
1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Saying things like "This is the way we always have ridden this horse".
4. Appointing a special player-run committee to study the horse.
5. Arranging to visit other servers to see how they ride dead horses.
6. Increasing the level requirement to ride dead horses.
7. Appointing a cleric team to ressurect the dead horse.
8. Creating a training session to increase our riding ability.
9. Comparing the state of dead horses in today's MMORPG environment.
10. Change the requirements declaring that "This horse is not dead".
11. Hire NPC Wizards to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together for increased speed.
13. Declaring that "No horse is too dead to beat".
14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
15. Do a study to see if monks can ride dead horses better.
16. Buy a haste potion to make dead horses run faster.
17. Declare the horse is "better and faster" dead.
18. Form a discussion forum to find uses for dead horses.
19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
20. Say this horse is not real, but is an illusion casted by Peribo from Gnomish Wonderation.
And finally, when all else fails to solve the problem:
21. Promote the dead horse into a DM Position and ban the rider.
-
Drake Korren
- Dasarian Scout
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 2:37 pm
Please..make it stop.
No offense to Tin...but can we please lock this topic....AGAIN. I am so bloody sick of all this whining...Please I beg.....BEG!!!!
Oh and Jeh...as for the post above, what a breath of fresh air and....a huge....gigantic LOL.
Oh and Jeh...as for the post above, what a breath of fresh air and....a huge....gigantic LOL.
-
Tinuvhiell
- Dasarian Hero
- Posts: 783
- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:17 am
- Location: GA
