Spell Change Request - Greater Planar Binding

[jhr4n]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but I think you are asking, why are animals and elementals treated the same way, but outsiders treated differently?

To answer Jae's question, I don't know what the reasoning is. If I recall correctly, in PnP, the durations are all 1 round / level anyway (one encounter, basically). Why they work this way? I guess mechanics. Animals and elementals are really the same spell but after a certain point the next stronger summon doesn't make any sense as a animal.

All right Falson, let me spin that question around on you then. Lets say Planar binding did have 1 turn/ level, just like the summon spell of the same level. What basis would you have for picking one over the other? Wouldn't most people just take whichever was stronger? Wouldn't that just be letting people trade up from elemental to planar for free?

If everyone would quit using the elemental and start using the planar in it's place.... is that a success? I don't get it. Where as, having the duration different, you have an actual decision to make about power and duration.

[Eragon]

All hail to Depheant.

[Oye99]

Teehehe.. we're all so politically correct! ..

*pukes*

I just don't understand why a high level summon should be just as easy as a low level? Like it's been stated before, the stronger they are, the harder they should be to control.

[Peregrinus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but basically the duration on the summon creature spells is "until rest or logout" rather than any set amount.

My thought process is here that they should be about equal in effectiveness, perhaps the Planer Binding creature might be more powerful, but only sticks around for a time, while you have a slightly weaker creature for an indefinate amount of time so that in the end it comes close to an either/or senario... Though from what I've seen the GPB summon is no strong or weaker than the SCVIII spell.

Basically I think it should be an either/or senario, six in one, half a dozen in the other. As it stands now, nobody really uses GPB because the summon creature are considerably better because of the longer duration of the spells.

I'm also experimental, if changing GPB to say 1 trn/lvl overpowers it to the point that folks aren't using the summon monster spells, change it back and revisit the issue. The basic advantage of the summon monster is the pet advantage, similar to having your familiar out as a mage, it'll auto-defend you and hopefully catch hostiles before you get a chance to notice, buying you critical seconds, with any duration the GPB spells are only useful if you know you're going into combat, a trn based vs a rnd based duration basically makes it is it good for one or two encounters or more?

[jhr4n]

"the GPB spells are only useful if you know you're going into combat,"

That is the whole point.

You pick binding if you want strength (boss fight) or summoning if you want duration (general encounters).

If it is more powerful, and stays around as long, you're making the summon worthles. Who would ever use it?

[Brigadier Syndir Isendur]

Casters are already the most powerful group in the game. Making a spell more powerful for the consistency's sake is a waste of time. If you don't like greater planar binding, you have thirteen other level eight spells from which to choose.

[Guest]

I concead that, making the duration the same would be a bad idea, but 1 rnd/lvl is still too short to be effective, in my opinion, especially when you going into boss fights.

Take Raven for instance:

Rest
Plan
Buff
Drop in
Instigate the initial attack
Engage Raven
Die
Respawn
Rebuff
Return
Die
Respawn
Rebuff
Return
Die
Respawn
Rest
Rebuff
Return
Die
Respawn
Rebuff
Return
Kill Raven
Loot
Die (from trap)
Respawn
Rest
Return
Loot
Leave
Brag

Ok, that was a bit overkill, but the first phase before entering is the problem. At level 20, GPB lasts two real time minutes, if you use GPB at the beginning of a buff session for a boss fight, then it will desummon just as you port down. If you summon it after buffing, you probably will only have it for about thirty seconds at the start of the fight, considering how long things usually take. And summoning something once the battle begins? Typically takes to long, and the way the AI prioritizes targets, its pointless to summon once the fight is underway. Upping the time to 1/trn lvl makes it more effective in that role but still keeps it out of the duration effect, most mages don't keep their buffs up in the middle of town, simply because of the duration issue, the same would most likely be the case with GPB, because then its duration would be the same, so that you'd only summon it if you knew combat was coming up/likely.

[Peregrinus]

That was me again... for crying out loud, I need to remember to log in at work.

[DM Chicken Little]

Well darn. I find Depheant's post funny.

Even i do, i think the 5th seal just broke or something.

[Wyvern]

One turn per level is about 20 minutes real time at 20th, which is longer than the rest interval at that level. So 1 turn/level is effectively raising it to the same as the other summons.

[whiteguyinblues]

I know some spells have a duration of 24hrs. Could you change the spell duration to time limit instead of a turn or round limit?

[Peregrinus]

Considering the rest interval is at least 15 minutes. ;p

However, I did think that over, but my the main idea of the planer spells as spell you have when you head into combat as opposed to a spell you keep around continuously still stands.

A mage, unless very paranoid, doesn't sit around with their trn/lvl buffs running, they cast them when they go looking for trouble, in the same way, you wouldn't cast GPB until you go looking for trouble.

Remember, that Lesser Planer and Planer are both 1/hr a lvl, why should they have such long durations and then the Greater version be so significantly shorter, is the GPA that much better than the Summon monster of the same level that it needs to be that much shorter?

[Armitage]

This seems like a lot of deep thought for just a game.

Anyway.

I think they are fine as they are. Mages really don't need anymore help attaining demi-god status.

[Crimson Knightmare]

Casters are already the most powerful group in the game. Making a spell more powerful for the consistency's sake is a waste of time. If you don't like greater planar binding, you have thirteen other level eight spells from which to choose

Agreed 100%!

This seems like a lot of deep thought for just a game.

Agreed fully again..

Falson get over it.. Its a fricken spell.. dont like it.. dont use it.. Use a diff spells.. If you wana continue arguining then I will as well.. I can equally debate this topic both ways

[JaeEleutheria]

Spoken as a true wizard. I'm sorry, 20th level sorcerors cannot just simply "choose another spell". Tried, couldn't level anymore, couldn't change anymore spells. Alas poor me.

Can we keep this to a civil debate and not resort to "get over yourself" or "trying to be demi-gods"? The issue here is the spell itself, and whether it should have its duration changed. We should stick to the yay, nay statements and be objective about it.

This suggestion is not about going on a power trip, as it would effect anyone else who may use said spells. It is simply that, a suggestion. Take it or leave it, but don't attack the person who suggests it.

Thank you, and have a nice day.