Dasaria Forums

There are rewards to be had by doing for the campaign, rather than just doing for the self.

Iam just joining this topic late, and to bring it back on track. I say just take the Holy sword Spell out compleatly, I belive in what others have said here let the palladins earn the right to carry one, not be able to cast it at will.

I still think there is no substitute for a well timed assault. In almost any game, including this one: 1st strike will most likely win. This lends a great advantage to the attacker.

It sounds like Meld came on strong and fast. He had the momentum and surprise. He came prepared. I have played many online games and I have been on the giving and receiving side of this scenario more times than I can count. Online games favor the prepared and the aggressive. It is the nature of the beast.

I must also say that I often play the Lictor (an NPC emissary of the Queen) and again: I have won 99% of the pvp contests that I have been the assaulter with 1st strike advantage and I have lost 99% of the pvp encounters that I have been the unprepared defender. Duradas The Red tossed her around like a rag-doll. He knows his class and had the momentum and the advantage of 1st strike.

I have to say that I have seen 4 Nergalites attack a group of 10-12 unwary people, many of whom were of top level, and the nergalites killed them all and lost not a single character in the fight. Example: East of Oraans Crossing in the Road Building Event. Again...1st strike...Momentum and Advantage.

While I agree the Holy Sword Spell is out of the Dasarian context. I am not sure that there is a widespread balance issue involved. Will this truly make the situation better if it were nerfed? Possibly it will. We will definitely consider it strongly in light of the many times it was uttered here.

I do take our high level paladins pretty seriously on Dasaria due to their power and no class's behavior comes under more DM scrutiny than the paladins. I can tell you that a high level paladin that doesn’t make the effort to play the part will likely wake up and find himself a fighter.

Another note that I may have mentioned before is that in PnP (1st and 2nd edition anyway), it is very difficult to legitimately roll a character who qualifies for the paladin class. It is too bad that we don’t have the roll of the dice to contend with on creation.

So- Kudos for conducting a civil discussion. It is very nice to see people working together respectfully to improve the server.

I'm starting to like the idea of having some of the more powerful normal classes become like PrC's, that they need a teacher. I sort of did this with Tilirinn. He is Legnar's apprentice and we have done a fair bit of RP with it, but we have more been doing stuff about how to use a cleric. Jimmy has been teaching me how to use a cleric to there best, as IC as he can But we did have some great RP sessions in the pits just talking about how to use spells and when. It's all about mastering your class, go and make a character that is an aprentice, go get taught how to use your class. There is always new tricks to learn. Jimmy told me stuff I would never of thought of, now I just need to put it into practice and perfect it.
As Jeh said, if your on the attack, on the push, then you have the upper hand. So find out how to get on the push, and work out how you can push back and change the momentum if your on the defence.

exactly... what they said *points up to Jeh's and lankycheese's posts* just like that.

Meld before you read this post please don't take offense.. I'm trying to prove a point about virtue and the Lawful side of Paladins aligment. Its sort of what I should have put in Jehs post alignmet Skew. (( Sorry for hijacking your original post Jeh ))

Meld.. as much as I have fun pvpin with you I did have issues with the fight we had. When Meldvion came running out of the village the first person he killed was Kasur.. you were invis (( a bit dodgy for a paladin )) You didn't turn us to dislike (( so we were unaware of your intentions and I couldn't defend Kasur as I had to start messing with friendly settings)) and to top it off Kasur hadn't done anything wrong.. other than argue with you. I do admit Ebenezer deserved it as he had attacked you a few days ago... we had issues to sort.

I have no real problem with the Pally's having a Holy Avenger as long as they roleplay they are lawful good, which makes them beatable to some extent as they shouldn't be using underhand tricks. Holly keeps telling us about virtue... sneaking up on two unaware victims on the edge of the village invisable.. .is virtous?

I agree with Judas 100%... Paladins are Lawful good.. they are supposed to have morals... Kasur is a Nergalite and evil but does that give Meldvion the right to kill him for no other reason than that? Perhaps Girru Meldvion's god likes him doing this.. but does society.. its barbaric he is killing people for thier beliefs.

For example lets say the shoe had been on the other foot.. if Meld and lets say Legnar had come in the village bad mouthing Ebenezer and then left. Then Ebenezer got someone to buff him up and he followed cloaked with invisably Meldvion and Legnar outside the village.. he then beat them to death cos he doesn't like their god. The Redboots would have been after Eb rather quickly I think..

On top of that the Red boots are seriously biased... Nergalites guilty Paladins above the law. For me with Ebenezer this causes a problem I am lawful, I haven't broke any laws in the village ever I am just "evil and guilty" before I have been ajudged to have done anything. The Paladins are ranting and raving about the good of their god and then beating the crap out of anyone that disagrees with them... its dodgy ground.. Why aren't any Redboots telling them to back down and stop inciting trouble, causing trouble and actually killing people for disagreeing with them.

I am all for Paladins hunting evil people if they want to but they suffer the consequences of it. I just started ranting as someone posted about setting up a faction with 20 Paladins, twenty people above the law.. hunting discrimantly. It sounds pretty worrying to me and that is one massive alignment skew to skew all others.

PS

Also what Sable says.. if Fera, Holly and Meld have "earned" the right to weild Holy Avengers... why has Sable not earned the right to have a big fancy Vorpal axe, or Loki with his +5 chicken on a stick. Or is Nergal a weaker god?

Winky Willis wrote:Meld.. as much as I have fun pvpin with you I did have issues with the fight we had. When Meldvion came running out of the village the first person he killed was Kasur.. you were invis (( a bit dodgy for a paladin )) You didn't turn us to dislike (( so we were unaware of your intentions and I couldn't defend Kasur as I had to start messing with friendly settings)) and to top it off Kasur hadn't done anything wrong.. other than argue with you. I do admit Ebenezer deserved it as he had attacked you a few days ago... we had issues to sort.

I have no real problem with the Pally's having a Holy Avenger as long as they roleplay they are lawful good, which makes them beatable to some extent as they shouldn't be using underhand tricks. Holly keeps telling us about virtue... sneaking up on two unaware victims on the edge of the village invisable.. .is virtous?

Meldvion isn't an idiot. What sort of paladin would go up and give 4 evil doers time to buff up and attack first? Doing that he's just allowing evil to escape as he will inevitably lose. No Paladin would allow that.

Winky Willis wrote:I agree with Judas 100%... Paladins are Lawful good.. they are supposed to have morals... Kasur is a Nergalite and evil but does that give Meldvion the right to kill him for no other reason than that? Perhaps Girru Meldvion's god likes him doing this.. but does society.. its barbaric he is killing people for thier beliefs.

It's normal to kill people for their beliefs in this fantasy land. Centuries ago you were burned at stake if people thought you were a witch, it's the same thing. You're part of an evil cult that is corrupting and tainting Dasaria, therefore Paladin unleashes some smiting.

Winky Willis wrote:For example lets say the shoe had been on the other foot.. if Meld and lets say Legnar had come in the village bad mouthing Ebenezer and then left. Then Ebenezer got someone to buff him up and he followed cloaked with invisably Meldvion and Legnar outside the village.. he then beat them to death cos he doesn't like their god. The Redboots would have been after Eb rather quickly I think..

It was outside the village, RBs can't do a thing.

Winky Willis wrote:On top of that the Red boots are seriously biased... Nergalites guilty Paladins above the law. For me with Ebenezer this causes a problem I am lawful, I haven't broke any laws in the village ever I am just "evil and guilty" before I have been ajudged to have done anything. The Paladins are ranting and raving about the good of their god and then beating the crap out of anyone that disagrees with them... its dodgy ground.. Why aren't any Redboots telling them to back down and stop inciting trouble, causing trouble and actually killing people for disagreeing with them.

Not true, if an active RB was online ANYONE who killed in town would be sent to jail. Many paladins have gone to jail for this.

Winky Willis wrote:I am all for Paladins hunting evil people if they want to but they suffer the consequences of it. I just started ranting as someone posted about setting up a faction with 20 Paladins, twenty people above the law.. hunting discrimantly. It sounds pretty worrying to me and that is one massive alignment skew to skew all others.

The problem is that the laws protect those who commit evil acts outside the village. An evil character can waltz into town claiming he's sacraficed some farmer to Anshar who strayed out of the town borders. What can the law do? Nothing, that's what. That's where the Paladin's come in. Paladin's know what you evil guys have done outside of the village (not everything mind you ) and justice must be dealt. they're the ones to do this. In a paladin's eyes, the Queen's laws are flawed.

Winky Willis wrote:Also what Sable says.. if Fera, Holly and Meld have "earned" the right to weild Holy Avengers... why has Sable not earned the right to have a big fancy Vorpal axe, or Loki with his +5 chicken on a stick. Or is Nergal a weaker god?

Sable isn't a Blackguard, that's why.

There was a Redboot present. And believe me, I did make sure you lot were out of town.

Meldvion isn't an idiot. What sort of paladin would go up and give 4 evil doers time to buff up and attack first? Doing that he's just allowing evil to escape as he will inevitably lose. No Paladin would allow that.

Errrmmmm... little thing called Honor.. which if yer ask me is integral to being a Paladin.. i'm not saying that Paladins should walk in and insist that someone waits, buffs ect before attacking but under those circumstances where the attack took place after the insults had been traded then I would say that it was not a totally Honorable act..

Loki wrote:

Meldvion isn't an idiot. What sort of paladin would go up and give 4 evil doers time to buff up and attack first? Doing that he's just allowing evil to escape as he will inevitably lose. No Paladin would allow that.

Errrmmmm... little thing called Honor.. which if yer ask me is integral to being a Paladin.. i'm not saying that Paladins should walk in and insist that someone waits, buffs ect before attacking but under those circumstances where the attack took place after the insults had been traded then I would say that it was not a totally Honorable act..

That's just another internal conflict of the Paladin. Fight with honour, or die and allow evil to go free and commit more acts of evil. My opinion is that most Paladins would make sure that justice was dispensed on these horribly evil bastards.

In reponse to Jimmy.

So its ok for Paladins to attack people without warning and invisable... three words.. cowardly, murderous and deceitful.

Witches were burnt when society had one controlling religion in history, and they were deem heritics and they were hunted by sick twisted freaks.. that were L/E, or do can Paladins now torture people into confessing now as well. Dasaria has numerous religions.. it doesn't really work does it the witch finding. Also the witch finders had a mandate given to them by the crown... I don't think the Paladins have got that quite yet.

Its not out of the village Redboots can't do a thing.. hmm.. I play evil characters... I've been arrested and hunted for things I've done outside the village.

The Queens laws are flawed.. but your actually saying he is above the law.. or that he can ignore it when he sees fit? He is lawful.. it shouldn't be an option for him.

You say Sable isn't a Blackgaurd... er so what.

Winky Willis wrote:In reponse to Jimmy.

So its ok for Paladins to attack people without warning and invisable... three words.. cowardly, murderous and deceitful.

One more... Justice. perhaps he felt it had to be dealt no matter what? So he had to use every advantage he had to make sure Justice was dealt. I'm not Meldvion, so I wouldn't know. Other Paladins would do differently, it's up to the individual as to what they'd do.

Winky Willis wrote:Witches were burnt when society had one controlling religion in history, and they were deem heritics and they were hunted by sick twisted freaks.. that were L/E, or do can Paladins now torture people into confessing now as well. Dasaria has numerous religions.. it doesn't really work does it the witch finding. Also the witch finders had a mandate given to them by the crown... I don't think the Paladins have got that quite yet.

Paladins feel they have that right. They feel it's their duty and take it upon themselves to do such a thing.

Winky Willis wrote:Its not out of the village Redboots can't do a thing.. hmm.. I play evil characters... I've been arrested and hunted for things I've done outside the village.

Heehee, sounds like some Redboots are abusing their power...

Winky Willis wrote:The Queens laws are flawed.. but your actually saying he is above the law.. or that he can ignore it when he sees fit? He is lawful.. it shouldn't be an option for him.

Why not?

"Hey everyone you can be evil and chill out in Daris, don't worry it's a haven for us evil-doers. Come one come all!"

So a Paladin should just stand around and let them plot and scheme and not act until an innocent soul has been killed? Nope. Paladins are the law, or at least they feel they are.

Winky Willis wrote:You say Sable isn't a Blackgaurd... er so what.

You want the Opposite of a Holy Avenger? You'll need the opposite of a Paladin, therefore Blackguard.

Jimmy wrote:One more... Justice. perhaps he felt it had to be dealt no matter what? So he had to use every advantage he had to make sure Justice was dealt. I'm not Meldvion, so I wouldn't know. Other Paladins would do differently, it's up to the individual as to what they'd do.

Hmmm by that logic.. its okay to wipe out all the inhabitants of a village known to harbor someone evil.. in the name of justice.. at any price? Hmm not sure that yer average Paladin would go for that one to be honest..

Hmmm by that logic.. its okay to wipe out all the inhabitants of a village known to harbor someone evil.. in the name of justice.. at any price? Hmm not sure that yer average Paladin would go for that one to be honest..

Not saying all paladins would do that, but Ive read a few stories where that does happen. It buckles down the idividual character.

The reason why Meldvion should't think he is above the law.. is that he then shouldn't be considered lawful. He ain't lawful anymore he ain't a Paladin.

Paladins feel the right to hunt and kill people that they don't like... so do the worlds numerous terrosist groups.. doesn't make em right.. and most people would consider them evil. What your actually saying is they are religious crack pots that do what they like and what they want to whom ever they deem unworthy... that is pretty far from the word good in my concept of it.

As for Paladins presuming they are the law, this contradicts there alginment slightly too.. shouldn't it be C/G characters that think they are above the law?
.. surely we have got to the point were the Redboots woudl say " Er actually you aren't the law.. keep killing people for "your " religious beliefs.. you get more than jail."

Sable is Nergals Warlord... his champion.. the whole faction agreed on it. We have paladins hacking down our followers.. surely old grubby would muster up some weapon for his champion.. to fight off all those.. above the law, unmandated, uber Paladins.. that are KOS'n his followers.

Nice discussion by the way