Council of Lords (Read this and respond ASAP) please

Palequine · Post by **Palequine** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:04 pm

I am curious...I was just mulling through the Councils posts..grantid I didnt get very far..Just up to the point where Kurich (Our true Noble Paladin of Marduk) said that Naps isnt in the council so he has no right to vote. Well now this gets me to thinking a few things.

1. Whats the council for...because by that statement alone its obviously not for the people of Daris. As a council member did you get any shiney new gifts? some unique Items that no one else gets hmm?

2. If it is for the people of Daris...when do we get a say...in government the Senate proposes the laws ans the community votes on them..not the senate decisions votes on them and becomes law.

3. If it is not for the people then whats your purpose..the Redboots were doing just fine without the Council.

Now I want to make sure I am clear and that these statements are Idle thoughts that I have had. I am not Kisanth and I do not openly call you corrupt officials and the like. Obviously you believe your doing this to have some type of good come out of it...But again whats the point. If your not here for the people of Daris. who are you you here for? If its greed and power then I suggest that you tell people that. For some of us have fought with people (such as Kisanth) about this very thing. And for those arguments to be wasted on people who are just power hungry, I for one would be very upset. I know most of the council fairly well..and our swords have helped each other in the past. But realize there are many who dont know you all as well as some of us. And they deserve just as much rights, and just as much freedom as all those that do. I respect the Idea of a Council...for the right reasons.

Kurich e'Marduk · Post by **Kurich e'Marduk** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:37 pm

I didn't say he had no right to vote.
I said he wouldn't have to sign the treaty, since I thought it was between the Council members and the Nergal Boyzz.
This was incorrect anyway, since Shal's proposal also said the leaders of the churches, but I did not mean to say or imply the people's input was unwelcome.

Roland · Post by **Roland** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:47 am

I myself am in it for the power and prestige... hehe totally kidding.

You have a very good point Palequine. I was actually wondering when someone was going to bring this up and, quite frankly, I am suprised it took this long. Actually the only thing I got from the council meeting was bad indigesion due to the catering service (OOC:It was a very fun RP'ing situation tho).

Remember, this is a new idea to Dasaria, and it will have its mistakes, foul ups and bad judgments. However I feel some good will come out of this for all of the players.

Just an idea I thought of: The council discusses the issues at a given meeting. These issues are brought to a vote that the council then votes on. If the issue is passed, it goes to the open polls of Daris. If it does not then it goes back to the council for clarification, amendments etc... Majority vote of the people of Daris wins.

Again, this is just an idea.. however I feel we should get more input from everyone on this issue.

~Roland of Utu

shrike3000 · Post by **shrike3000** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:02 am

Its very much not for power as there are no special items or anything for the Council. The Council is made up of a diverse group of people FROM teh society of Dasaria, so in that way the people do have a voice. Also, any ideas you have, any opinoins on the way things should be voted on can be discussed or lobbied to any council member. As Roland said this is a new idea to try and both have fun and make Dasaria a better place, if refinements, changes, etc can be done to make it better then great I am all for it. To be honest I don't have much faith in large crowds to make decisions, which is why I tried to move it to a diverse small crowd that represented the ideals and viewpoints of most of Dasaria.

Even when it came to the point of trying to vote one council seat in the bashing (alot of it OOC) got way out of hand and total chaos ensued. I would think so far most of the decisions made by the Council will be agreed upon by the wide majority of Dasaria, as I feel the council represents majority opinoin well. But the few people who love to drive things into the ground and turn everything into terrible (OOC) mudslinging could make actually trying to pass a law or come to a decision en masse much more trouble than its worth.

*Jaysenir grabs an infected pigeon from his shoulder and swallows, hoping for a quick death.

Jay

Melthavion · Post by **Melthavion** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:47 am

Since Pal seemed to have some OOC concerns here (pardom me if I misread) I'll step in with some OOC assurances for him. The council members in no way received any special items or gifts from the builders or DM's. Even their meeting hall was bought from private funding IC. If they want to give each other stuff, well, that's another matter

(and no, I don't know of that happening either).

As for the Redboots, they were asked to and serve a special purpose for the DM's, to bring some issues of SERVER rules in-character and handle some things in that manner that helps take some of the load off us, and improve the playing experience for everyone. Such as, a griefer in the middle of the day when a DM isn't around logs in and starts harassing players. The RB's could suddenly jail offenders that were severely abusing server rules and leave them to rot there away from other people legitimately trying to play. And, I might add, we did have some apprehension about giving such authority out to players at first, but I think they have done an exceptional job so far, and the frequency and severity of such incidents has dramatically decreased since then. They are an IC player force though, and their duties start to cross over from SERVER rules to PLAYER created rules, and as such the Brigadier wisely asked for some guidance on enforcing such rules (since in these areas he wasn't getting it from us). Hopefully the Council can provide that.

Oh, and yes, assuming you're talking about the US, Congress (the Senate and the House of Reps) does indeed propose and pass laws without the general populace ever getting a say (other than when we vote for our representatives).

-Mel

Drake Korren · Post by **Drake Korren** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:01 am

*hides his Mini-Wall and Mace of insane power +5 with 6d100 Divine energy on hit.* We didn't get nothing...nope nothin' at all!!!

Seriously though we don't get special items and we shall always here what the people have to say.

I took a really big bribe to get me to say that...hehehe Kidding again.

Bracht Frostridge Templar of Anu

Post by **Jehannum** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:30 am

in government the Senate proposes the laws ans the community votes on them..

haha, what country works like that? I might consider moving if i could find it. It sure isnt the U.S.

Celdur Kellin · Post by **Celdur Kellin** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:02 am

OOC Sorry to butt in, but it would be nice to have a vote on the laws & rules that the council decide on, I mean I read the minutes of the meeting & it did seem to be getting ridiculous, I agree about not dueling in town or casting area effect spells, & how can you say you only have jurisdiction in 3 areas when you say you can pursue the criminal anywhere or help anybody anywhere, that to me means your jurisdiction exceeds the 3 areas you stated, to convince me personally on that point you will have to go into it more, also trying say that people could not have summons or buffs in town is going too far, as long as it does no other player any harm what is the problem, just because some people think it look ridiculous, well I personally do not think it does not, it is part of showing off how powerful you are which some people like doing, it is part of reason for levelling surely, to show how your char has improved. I agree the council is a good idea but how can a majority of 8 have the say of 100 + members without asking how the other members feel, any ooc rubbish they can ignore if it is not too the point surely. Sorry if I am going on just thought I could throw in my tuppence worth as I love the server it is the best I have been & yes it does need to be kept under contol, but I am sure that putting proposals on the forum can do no harm, that is what the forum is for isn`t it, you have already decided on a couple of rules or laws but I saw no mention or proposal of what you were going to discuss.
I am not trying to offend anyone or cause a row I just wanted to express the opinion of me a simple player of the Dasaria server.

Big Bad Ergg · Post by **Big Bad Ergg** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:09 am

It was my understanding that the Council was selected from a wide range of proven veterans who would represent the rest of us.

This would allow a small group of diverse people to sit down and hack out "law" as best they could.

It really doesn't matter whether or not Kurich said Nap couldn't vote. Bottom line is he can't. Does this mean his opinion is worthless? Lesse, would the High Priest of Marduk be able to share his opinion with a powerful Paladin of Marduk???

A majority of the citizens of Daris have ties to Council members. Those who don't only need to stick around long enough to prove themselves and then they will also.

Just because I don't sit at the table and cast my ballot doesn't mean my voice won't be heard.

This system is a good one. We should NOT have any kind of public vote.

Just a simple opinion from a simple soldier.

Celdur Kellin · Post by **Celdur Kellin** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:22 am

It was my understanding that the Council was selected from a wide range of proven veterans who would represent the rest of us.

Yes they were selected from a wide range but I have only spoken to a couple of members once or twice, & who decides you are a proven veteran, I know many veterans who were never asked & that do not have ties too council members, anyway it is drifting from my point & I am not going to get involved in a row, I have wrote what I have & that is after discussion with a fair few players who agree with me but are too nervous to say anything.

Roland · Post by **Roland** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:25 am

Celdur Kellin wrote:how can you say you only have jurisdiction in 3 areas when you say you can pursue the criminal anywhere or help anybody anywhere, that to me means your jurisdiction exceeds the 3 areas you stated

These 3 areas of jurisdiction have to do with jailing powers. Dasar jurisdiction is actually under debate. It, in my opinion, should be removed from the jailing jurisdiction. When I proposed it I did not take into account it's there for PvP reasons.

If a crime is commited in town (if this is passed), the Redboots have the authority to persue the suspect should said suspect flee town, and jail if deemed just. If an act that is illegal in Daris is commited outside of town (Daris and Seaside Daris), the Redboots can be enlisted to help find the person, but only as a citizen of Daris, without the jailing powers. The victim of this hypothetical second situation could enlist the help of ANY player. (It is a PvP server, and as long as PvP is kept within the server ruleset, play vigilanty/bounty hunter if it suits you).

I hope this helps.

~Roland of Utu

Big Bad Ergg · Post by **Big Bad Ergg** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:39 am

Celdur, I too know many veterans who weren't asked to join.

Just how many chairs do you want the council table to hold? I do not know how most members were selected. I do not care how most members were selected.

If people have NO connections to the council it is for 1 of 2 reasons. 1: They are too new and haven't met many people yet. 2: They are just too big of a yutz to be bothered with.

Now, I know that you will be screaming how nasty the Redboot officers are. This is Ergg talking. Not Kurich, R'ekkan, James, or anyone else.

I do notice that you've been around for a while...

Celdur Kellin · Post by **Celdur Kellin** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:32 pm

Yes Ergg I have been around a while, obviously not as long as you, but

If people have NO connections to the council it is for 1 of 2 reasons. 1: They are too new and haven't met many people yet. 2: They are just too big of a yutz to be bothered with.

I agree with point 1 but point 2 is being a bit unfair to other players surely, why are they yutz`s just because they do not know anybody on the council, people play in diff times zones as you know & not all the council members are on 24/7 as there are a lot of people who play on this server it does not mean they have or will get to know a council member. I have been playing on this server since November with my earlier char Drago & now Celdur & I have no ties with the council so I take it I am a Yutz. As for screaming at the Redboots I have made my position clear, the Commander knows how I feel so why should I be screaming at the Redboots, and just because you are Big Bad Ergg does not mean I will speak to you any different than I would anybody else, I will be polite & not abusive, but I think you have no right to call other people a Yutz just because they do not know a council member like you or your other char Captain Bill. We will not agree on the point of our argument so I think we should end it here before it gets out of hand.
By the way Roland you explained it a bit better, yes I agree they can pursue a criminal but only as a citizen not a Redboot or like I said the Redboot jurisdiction woul be more than stated areas, thanx Roland.

Big Bad Ergg · Post by **Big Bad Ergg** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 12:47 pm

((I am "big bad" ergg due to do log-in problems with my computer. Someone else gave me that name. Also I am NOT Capt. Bill Strong))

My overall point, insults aside, is that there is no reason any given person COULDN'T have ties to SOMEONE on the council.

As for my calling you a yutz I tend to get cranky with people who appear to think the law is for everyone else. If my perception here is wrong it is wrong.

I call 'em like I see 'em.

((Keep in mind that Ergg, as a character, has very little use for tact.))

shrike3000 · Post by **shrike3000** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:16 pm

I can only speak for myself, but I have a strong feeling this applies to most everyone else on the Council. I love Dasaria. All I want to do is make it a better place for everyone. I love listening to people's opinoins on how things should be when they do it in a civilized manner. I take into consideration all of the things I have heard when I make a vote or state my opinoin.

You complained about some things said in the Council minutes. The problem with your complaints is you were taking one or two comments from members and saying thats how things were. Lets take the matter of summons in the village. Your opinoin is that the idea of that being illegal is ridiculous. If you read the minutes again you will see, your voice was heard! There were several of us, myself the most outspoken even, who could not agree more about how bad an idea that was. I am constantly keeping in mind people like you, Tabor, Kisanth, etc who hate the idea of bring pushed around and told what to do. I want our laws to not be oppresive, but to be ones that the majority of citizens embrace and are happy to have, that is why I fight so hard for us at the Council to SERVE the interests of the people, not push our own ideals on people.

I very much encourage you to get to know people on the Council, get to know me please, as I am interested in your input. I have been here in Dasaria longer than the majority who play now, and yes I think that means I have a bit more invested in it than that level 14 fighter who has been here for 2 1/2 weeks. Several members on the council were appointed for being veterans as well, but I also tried to appoint people who were more representative of the newer players, the evil players, the hothead players, I truly wanted to here a wide variety of opinoins, and I think the first meeting showed we have lots of opinoins, which is a great thing.

I suggest this, try and have a little bit of faith in the intentions of the members of the Council. If you have a constructive idea, PLEASE share it with us here in the forums or in the game. Instead of attacking, whining, complaining please help us make it better. Which law proposal don't you like? Why? What should the law be? Laws can easily be changed, rewritten and revoted on. My mind is very open to the ideas of others. Heading up this Council is not an easy thing, just as I know Kurich often has a hard time heading up the Redboots, we hope you can see the positive effects these things we are working very hard at doing can have.

Jay

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Council of Lords (Read this and respond ASAP) please

Council of Lords (Read this and respond ASAP) please

Yutz`s ??