We have made a few changes to some spells with the last few updates. I have held off announcing this because I wanted to work out a few tweaks and give correct and up to date info when announced. There seems to be some confusion though, and I think most of the tweaks are done, so I'll go ahead and put them up.
* TimeStop now is an AoE spell, as it should have been according to the description. It will no longer pause the entire server. Also, it's duration has been changed from a constant 9 seconds to a variable amount centered around that. You may get a little less time out of a TS, you may get a little more. It now affects a radius around the caster of 30 meters. (If you're familliar with the toolset, this is a sphere 6 tiles in diameter, so it's still a pretty large AoE).
* Heal/Harm, Raise Dead, Resurrection, and Mass Heal are powerful magics that require a lot of energy and exertion from the caster, and will now leave the caster stunnded and fatigued for a small duration, varying with the power of the spell. Also, Raise will only work on a corpse if they are at or above -30 hp. Resurrection will work down to -60 hp. Beyond that, and the body is too mutiliated to bring back on the spot, and will require the aid of someone like Llarineal (read: respawn).
-Mel
Spell changes
Moderator: Lords of The Realm
-
Melthavion
- Site Admin
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:11 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
-
Melthavion
- Site Admin
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:11 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
that was fun to see.
Heh, i wondered why I was dazed all the time when using resurection. I was going to post in the bug forum, but I stopped here before doing it:)
Edit...maybe exploit. will send mail
Edit...maybe exploit. will send mail
-------------------------------------------------------
There are no words
-------------------------------------------------------
Gomez- The Arcane Wizard
El Suave- Gate keeper of Nergal
Silent Whisper- Paladin squire
Thinatuel- Unknown
There are no words
-------------------------------------------------------
Gomez- The Arcane Wizard
El Suave- Gate keeper of Nergal
Silent Whisper- Paladin squire
Thinatuel- Unknown
-
Chaos Charos
- Carpenter's Guild
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:38 pm
- Location: A temple near you
Since most people tend to agree with every desicion DMs take, I'll step up and throw the first spanner in the works.
The TimeStop changes I have no grievances over, neither with the Harm spell. I simply don't see the reasoning behind altering the Heal spell and even more so, the Raise Dead and Resurrection.
Example: A group of 3 Fighter characters and a Cleric go to Ravenwatch, Talon Hold or Defile. The fighters for some reason die and the Cleric is left to res them. Since Talons can spot characters even when invisible, I'd like you to guess how long a Cleric will last if he casts res on one companion and gets stunned for several seconds thereafter with Talon Scouts raining arrows down on the Cleric. I feel fairly certain that nobody will come out of that situation alive
The XP loss when respawning is a minor concern to me, but now players are faced with losing far more gold than what we are used to since there is no way to save money - the Banker went joy-riding with his new Talon buds
Clerics already have a weaker combat ability than your frontline Fighters, but now they get penalised because they wish to assist their companions? One of the main reasons why players create Cleric characters are because they want to help friends (ie: Wesley, Roland, Shadow, Lyanna, Oskar, etc.) while having fairly decent combat abilities when supported by Fighters, now Clerics become sitting ducks in dangerous situations when they wish to use the exact skills that make a Cleric what he or she is, a character providing support to others.
*shakes his head and walks off while muttering under his beard*
- Chaos
The TimeStop changes I have no grievances over, neither with the Harm spell. I simply don't see the reasoning behind altering the Heal spell and even more so, the Raise Dead and Resurrection.
Example: A group of 3 Fighter characters and a Cleric go to Ravenwatch, Talon Hold or Defile. The fighters for some reason die and the Cleric is left to res them. Since Talons can spot characters even when invisible, I'd like you to guess how long a Cleric will last if he casts res on one companion and gets stunned for several seconds thereafter with Talon Scouts raining arrows down on the Cleric. I feel fairly certain that nobody will come out of that situation alive
The XP loss when respawning is a minor concern to me, but now players are faced with losing far more gold than what we are used to since there is no way to save money - the Banker went joy-riding with his new Talon buds
Clerics already have a weaker combat ability than your frontline Fighters, but now they get penalised because they wish to assist their companions? One of the main reasons why players create Cleric characters are because they want to help friends (ie: Wesley, Roland, Shadow, Lyanna, Oskar, etc.) while having fairly decent combat abilities when supported by Fighters, now Clerics become sitting ducks in dangerous situations when they wish to use the exact skills that make a Cleric what he or she is, a character providing support to others.
*shakes his head and walks off while muttering under his beard*
- Chaos
-
Jehannum
- Lord of the Realms
- Posts: 2470
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:53 pm
- Location: The Big City of Lula, Georgia
Its not like they are incapable of helping people. You make it sound like these spells and the class is now useless due to a 5-10 seconds forced rest period after channeling the power over life and death. What is wrong with the other instances in the healing line of spells? Heal is not the only heal in the repertoir. Raising the dead should be more of an ordeal- not something that you do with a quick click as you pass by a fallen person.
Clerics are armed with so many healing spells- why not actively heal rather than fight so much? Then maybe the res wont be necessary. Save the Heals for critical times. I have yet to see many instances of a cleric focusing on healing above offensive power.
Personally, I think potions in NWN devalue clerics. Imagine the asset a priest would be if there were no or few potions....Is it feasible in NWN? not really
Consider the 3rd ed pen and paper rules. Particularly the casting time. Some of the other items arent applicable in NWN, but some are.
Ok so ravenwatch takes a little more planning now since you have to have control of the area before you lay down the divine power over life and death...Challenge=good. In my book anyway.
Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The cleric restores life to a deceased creature. The cleric can raise creatures who have been dead only up to 1 day per caster
level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell
does not work; therefore, subjects who want to return receive no saving throw. The subject loses a level (or 1 Constitution
point, if she’s 1st level) when raised.
Raise dead cures hit point damage up to a total of 1 hit point per Hit Die. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1.
Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not
undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised
must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s
equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs,
elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level to
an energy-draining creature. This level loss cannot be repaired by any spell. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 1 point of
Constitution instead. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised,
in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A character with spellcasting capacity (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of
losing any given spell slot, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.
Material Component: Worth at least 500 gp.
Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Casting Time: 10 minutes
As raise dead, except the character is able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature. The condition of the
remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion
receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a
disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster
level.
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared
spells. However, the subject loses one level (or 1 point of Constitution if the subject was 1st level).
The character can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then
destroyed. The character cannot revive someone who has died of old age.
Material Components: Worth at least 500 gp.
I hear your opinion and this issue is in disussion.
Clerics are armed with so many healing spells- why not actively heal rather than fight so much? Then maybe the res wont be necessary. Save the Heals for critical times. I have yet to see many instances of a cleric focusing on healing above offensive power.
Personally, I think potions in NWN devalue clerics. Imagine the asset a priest would be if there were no or few potions....Is it feasible in NWN? not really
Consider the 3rd ed pen and paper rules. Particularly the casting time. Some of the other items arent applicable in NWN, but some are.
Ok so ravenwatch takes a little more planning now since you have to have control of the area before you lay down the divine power over life and death...Challenge=good. In my book anyway.
Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The cleric restores life to a deceased creature. The cleric can raise creatures who have been dead only up to 1 day per caster
level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell
does not work; therefore, subjects who want to return receive no saving throw. The subject loses a level (or 1 Constitution
point, if she’s 1st level) when raised.
Raise dead cures hit point damage up to a total of 1 hit point per Hit Die. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1.
Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not
undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised
must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s
equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.
A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs,
elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level to
an energy-draining creature. This level loss cannot be repaired by any spell. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 1 point of
Constitution instead. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised,
in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A character with spellcasting capacity (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of
losing any given spell slot, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.
Material Component: Worth at least 500 gp.
Resurrection
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7
Casting Time: 10 minutes
As raise dead, except the character is able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature. The condition of the
remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion
receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a
disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster
level.
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared
spells. However, the subject loses one level (or 1 point of Constitution if the subject was 1st level).
The character can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then
destroyed. The character cannot revive someone who has died of old age.
Material Components: Worth at least 500 gp.
I hear your opinion and this issue is in disussion.
-
Melthavion
- Site Admin
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:11 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Hmm...ok...we originally did the changes to make the game a little more challenging, and to get the cleric class a little more balanced. Look on the official BW forums, and Clerics are the uber class of choice on most PvP servers. Combined with the fact, as Jeh pointed out above, the spells in question are WAY off from their original PnP concept. The changes we made I feel are a lot less harsh than the ones in the PnP rules, but if enough of you feel like those are better, we can change them to as close as we can to the letter of the PnP rules.
-
Chaos Charos
- Carpenter's Guild
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:38 pm
- Location: A temple near you
Thanks for the thorough layout of the 2 spells. I do not for one moment argue that Clerics are the class when it comes to an experienced PvPer. My objection to the changes is not with the heal spell as such. since I know and understand that there are many other means of restoring lost hitpoints than the heal spell.
I'm querying why the Raise Dead and Resurrection spells leave the caster stunned for x amount of time. I would understand and accept if there was a penalty for using such a powerful spell in the way of losing gold, or even health, even leaving the targeted creature stunned after a res (arguing he or she is disorientated after being brought back to life) would be acceptable.
As per my first post, I still fail to see the reasoning behind leaving the caster stunned in a possibly very risky situation which could cause the premature death of a party if the Cleric is relied upon to raise the fallen comrades; or even the premature end of an otherwise fun adventure.
I have no objections against balancing a class for PvP purposes etc, but some of the changes that have been made doesn't even touch PvP basics, it simply puts the caster of the Raise Dead or Res spell at risk for the hell of it.
- Chaos
I'm querying why the Raise Dead and Resurrection spells leave the caster stunned for x amount of time. I would understand and accept if there was a penalty for using such a powerful spell in the way of losing gold, or even health, even leaving the targeted creature stunned after a res (arguing he or she is disorientated after being brought back to life) would be acceptable.
As per my first post, I still fail to see the reasoning behind leaving the caster stunned in a possibly very risky situation which could cause the premature death of a party if the Cleric is relied upon to raise the fallen comrades; or even the premature end of an otherwise fun adventure.
I have no objections against balancing a class for PvP purposes etc, but some of the changes that have been made doesn't even touch PvP basics, it simply puts the caster of the Raise Dead or Res spell at risk for the hell of it.
- Chaos
-
LoFang
- Lord of the Realms
- Posts: 958
- Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:21 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA - At home, work or enroute to one or the other
[quote="Jehannum"]Personally, I think potions in NWN devalue clerics. Imagine the asset a priest would be if there were no or few potions....Is it feasible in NWN? not really [quote]
I think potions could be toned down a lot fairly easilly. Raise the prices, make only light and moderate potions available for purchase. You could even remove them or substitute something in their place in the NWN drop tables. I wonder if there is a way to change healing kits as well, set them to instead of an instant healing effect, give 1-5 pts of regeneration each round for a number of rounds = to the roll someone got on a skill check (and disable the Take 20 on them)
Lowering the amount of self healing available does come as a blow to those melee who like to solo, or travel in small groups without a healing capable class along, but in the long run I think it would have an overall positive effect. NPC's wouldnt need to be super tough, or attack in swarms to be a threat.
As you may have noticed, I tend to suggest options that bring NWN closer to pen and paper D&D. I don't know a group in D&D that wouldn't think twice about not bringing a cleric or druid along with them, and if they did it can be all the more fun because they know they don't have that safety net of easy healing available. People tend to play more carefully, encounters are more dangerous and less of a sure thing, which raises suspense.
The main downside aside from those who choose to solo with their characters, is that clerics, and more importantly clerics with the healing domain, may become too important to the makeup of a group. Nara, at 12th level with the healing domain can cast 13 Cure serious wounds, all of which affected as though they were empowered, and none of which being memorized ahead of time (spontaneous casting of heal spells) And when those run dry? Are her comrades out of luck? nope, even with the penalties, 9 Heal spells and 5 Cure serious wounds should be enough in most instances.
My point? I don't know, I think I lost in there somewhere, but I am certainly for the lowering of healing power available, especially at low levels.
I think potions could be toned down a lot fairly easilly. Raise the prices, make only light and moderate potions available for purchase. You could even remove them or substitute something in their place in the NWN drop tables. I wonder if there is a way to change healing kits as well, set them to instead of an instant healing effect, give 1-5 pts of regeneration each round for a number of rounds = to the roll someone got on a skill check (and disable the Take 20 on them)
Lowering the amount of self healing available does come as a blow to those melee who like to solo, or travel in small groups without a healing capable class along, but in the long run I think it would have an overall positive effect. NPC's wouldnt need to be super tough, or attack in swarms to be a threat.
As you may have noticed, I tend to suggest options that bring NWN closer to pen and paper D&D. I don't know a group in D&D that wouldn't think twice about not bringing a cleric or druid along with them, and if they did it can be all the more fun because they know they don't have that safety net of easy healing available. People tend to play more carefully, encounters are more dangerous and less of a sure thing, which raises suspense.
The main downside aside from those who choose to solo with their characters, is that clerics, and more importantly clerics with the healing domain, may become too important to the makeup of a group. Nara, at 12th level with the healing domain can cast 13 Cure serious wounds, all of which affected as though they were empowered, and none of which being memorized ahead of time (spontaneous casting of heal spells) And when those run dry? Are her comrades out of luck? nope, even with the penalties, 9 Heal spells and 5 Cure serious wounds should be enough in most instances.
My point? I don't know, I think I lost in there somewhere, but I am certainly for the lowering of healing power available, especially at low levels.
DM LoFang, the Gnoll Lord
I have no problem with the changes added to the Priest spells... but my question is, is that when a Priest attempts harm and is dazed, how is it that a Wizard or Sorceror can cast several Finger of Death's, which has the power to kill instantly, and not be affected?
Priests derive their power from the gods, so it can be very draining to channel such power, I can agree with this. Wizards learn and study these magics, with no (Or in theory anyways) aid from a deity, and they are unaffected by the daze.
A simple inquiry, because I find it a little unbalanced. It used to be a Level 20 Wizard versus a Level 20 Priest (Which happens a lot in Dasar I find, during the skirmishes between Nergal and Marduk) was almost a fair match, usually the Wizard would win due to more offensive spells. With the changes, if a Priest attempts to heal himself (Cure Critical wounds just doesn't cut it in a Spellcaster Battle) he is as good as dead.
Any Wizard can testify to that fact, I've played them, I know what kind of potential they can have.
Priests derive their power from the gods, so it can be very draining to channel such power, I can agree with this. Wizards learn and study these magics, with no (Or in theory anyways) aid from a deity, and they are unaffected by the daze.
A simple inquiry, because I find it a little unbalanced. It used to be a Level 20 Wizard versus a Level 20 Priest (Which happens a lot in Dasar I find, during the skirmishes between Nergal and Marduk) was almost a fair match, usually the Wizard would win due to more offensive spells. With the changes, if a Priest attempts to heal himself (Cure Critical wounds just doesn't cut it in a Spellcaster Battle) he is as good as dead.
Any Wizard can testify to that fact, I've played them, I know what kind of potential they can have.
-
Big Bad Ergg
- Dasarian Hero
- Posts: 387
- Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2003 11:47 am
- Location: Troy. Ohio
OOC: As neither of my characters are spell casters the issue of spells really doesn't bother me too much.
The reason why I am even bothering to respond here is simply to say that THIS ISN'T D&D!
I play this for the instant gratification. I don't want to have to pull out 3-5 books, a set of 20 dice, and my trusted pencil of +3 to erasing neatly.
NWN has some changes from D&D to make it more like a video game, WHICH IT IS!
I have been playing D&D for over 20 years. I played the old keep on the borderlands. Many of my childhood memories center around the pen and paper game.
Please allow the two to be separate entities.
The reason why I am even bothering to respond here is simply to say that THIS ISN'T D&D!
I play this for the instant gratification. I don't want to have to pull out 3-5 books, a set of 20 dice, and my trusted pencil of +3 to erasing neatly.
NWN has some changes from D&D to make it more like a video game, WHICH IT IS!
I have been playing D&D for over 20 years. I played the old keep on the borderlands. Many of my childhood memories center around the pen and paper game.
Please allow the two to be separate entities.
Ergg is more than a name. It is a lifestyle!
In PnP D&D, Wizards were the ultimate class at high lvl. Nobody screws with an archmage. That's the way it should be. Priests have a much easier time than Wizards at low lvls, and are still tough at high lvls, perhaps the 2nd toughest class. But, Wizards get paid back for their struggles at low levels by their supreme power at the high end.
Harm is much more powerful than Finger of Death. Harm has no saving throw, and all you have to do is make a touch attack, which is usually not too tough to do. Finger of death usualy fails, and the only advantage that it offers is that it can be done from a distance, but you still have to get pretty close (The range is short). Much closer than I prefer when I'm playing a wizard who can die with one good blow from a fighter.
I don't play priests alot (my highest is 9th lvl), so this change hasn't affected me quite as directly as some of you, but I think in general this isn't too bad of an idea. Perhaps it needs some tweaking, but I think the basic reasoning makes sense. I agree with Nara's comments that making potions more expensive might make people more cautious and make priests more valuable to a party. I know of one priest who's sole purpose is to heal his party members while they are in combat. He refuses to fight anything from the prime material plane, which rules out alot. So, a chnage that makes potions more expensive or lowers availability will really help that type of character.
Harm is much more powerful than Finger of Death. Harm has no saving throw, and all you have to do is make a touch attack, which is usually not too tough to do. Finger of death usualy fails, and the only advantage that it offers is that it can be done from a distance, but you still have to get pretty close (The range is short). Much closer than I prefer when I'm playing a wizard who can die with one good blow from a fighter.
I don't play priests alot (my highest is 9th lvl), so this change hasn't affected me quite as directly as some of you, but I think in general this isn't too bad of an idea. Perhaps it needs some tweaking, but I think the basic reasoning makes sense. I agree with Nara's comments that making potions more expensive might make people more cautious and make priests more valuable to a party. I know of one priest who's sole purpose is to heal his party members while they are in combat. He refuses to fight anything from the prime material plane, which rules out alot. So, a chnage that makes potions more expensive or lowers availability will really help that type of character.
Ergg,
I respect your point of view, but I disagree. I want this to be as much like D&D as possible. I know some compromises have to be made to make it work in this medium, but I want to minimize them. I'm curious how many people agree with Ergg, and how many agree with me, perhaps someone should start a poll. Maybe I'll do it, if I can figure out how.
OK, I got the poll started, and it seems to work.
I respect your point of view, but I disagree. I want this to be as much like D&D as possible. I know some compromises have to be made to make it work in this medium, but I want to minimize them. I'm curious how many people agree with Ergg, and how many agree with me, perhaps someone should start a poll. Maybe I'll do it, if I can figure out how.
OK, I got the poll started, and it seems to work.
Last edited by ercoupe44 on Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.