I think paladins are too strong

Winky Willis · Post by **Winky Willis** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:36 am

that was nice to see the forces of good rallying =)

O yeah it was great.. beaten to a pulp for being a Nergalite.. and then frog marched into the jail on the hill... HE HE

Before anyone else starts playing a violin for the poor outnumbered paladins. Picture this.

Ebenezer (19th d.defenfer/fighter ) Kasur ( 18th priest of death ) Maroo ( barb/rogue level 20 ) Kerracan ( 17th level palemaster) in the red corner.

Meldvion ( 20th level paladin ? ) in the blue corner.

Ding ding.

The battle... or should I say massacre lasts less than 30 secs. Meldvion is the like the Mike Tyson of heavy weight boxing circa 1989 Buffed up... he is unstoppable. Eb has +30 to hit unbuffed and I still didn't hit him.. there isn't really much point me being buffed as he dispels on hit. Kasur has no chance.. as he is not only dispelled he is prone to knokcdown as any pure priest is, Maroo goes down like Eb.. and Kerracan followers swiftly after. The stats say it all I think Eb has best stats on the side of evil a +1 axe.. Mel has a +5 what ever he wants... Eb has ac 31.. Mel probably has 40+... saving throws don't even ask... Meld gets to fight the whole fight buffed up as for some reason my +1 axe doesn't dispel his buffs

While he strips me of all mine in the first round.

I'm not making a personal attack on Meldvion ( as Fera and Holly are just as deadly ) me and him have had quite a few duels, battles/exchanges over the last 18 months and enjoy pvping with him a lot as I have with Fera and Holly.. but Rati was more of a threat to the paladins before expansion packs than the four characters put together above... and that is just wrong.

The only way I can see anyone beating them... is bringing on a 20th level wizard.. timestop.. missiles storm .. yawn.

Jimmy · Post by **Jimmy** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:42 am

The Spell Holy Sword is pure lame and cheesy. Getting a Holy Avenger at the cast of a spell is just wrong, it's unbalancing and just doesn't make any sense and it really takes away from the coolness of Holy Avengers in general. Without it, the fight would've far more interesting.

Hailfall · Post by **Hailfall** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:00 am

Winky Willis wrote:The stats say it all I think Eb has best stats on the side of evil a +1 axe..

Gotta disagree with you on that. Maroo has a +2 scimitar and her AB reaches to around +30 something.

The reason I went down is because I had both Lictor and Meldvion hitting me.

*EDITED*

Jerio Caine · Post by **Jerio Caine** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:05 am

I second what Both Winky and Jimmy said...

[rant]I fear that the balance of the server won't be found, ever... there will always be something... atm the Paladin is the strongest. Then comes magic-based chars. Then Rogues for sneaks and stuff allways able to run away from a melee fighter as they don't run fast enough to catch the bloody buggars. (Maybe the barbs then) And last (Have NEVER changed) comes us, the Footsoldiers, the melee. Sure, Items can even it out a bit... But then you would have to have a strenght of 50 to carry all the items that you need to cast buffs on yourself so that you get equal with a Cleric or mage... So that means bags... Then you'd have, like before the wipe, 3 pages of your inv. filled with bags... All you hotkeys would be used for item buffs as you have to wear the items you have the buffs on, which will take time, while a Cleric hastes themselves and are buffed to kill in 1 minute TOPS! a Slow fighter with 25 item-buffs will stand there for 5 minutes at least... And time is something you just doesn't have since the spells duration has been nerfed, the first buffs will wear out before you have cast the last few ones and you'll just as half-bad as before... I have never played a magic-based character longer than to the level 10, I just can't... That's personal though, I can't... Many won't as it is unfair, others will do it just BECAUSE it's unfair... So to get the server balance right will be a moment 22 work (moment 22 = I have to get an item, but to get the item I have to have the item-paradox) you'll have to first enable this to enable that but to disable this you must disable the last and so on... It won't work... Maybe we can even it out.. but to nag about perfect balance, BAH!, that's just some fancy dream to me! [/rant]

//Davo

Jerio Caine · Post by **Jerio Caine** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:06 am

Hailfall wrote:
Winky Willis wrote:The stats say it all I think Eb has best stats on the side of evil a +1 axe..
Gotta disagree with you on that. Maroo has a +2 scimitar and her AB reaches to around +30 something.

The reason I went down is because I had both Lictor and Meldvion hitting on me.

Are you sure they were hitting on you not hitting you?

//Davo

Meldvion · Post by **Meldvion** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:08 am

To be honest, I'm a little ashamed over what happened yesterday. After the nergalites left, an idea formed in my/mel's head: "I'm gonna show them...". Then there was the surge of adrenaline, beating heart and all that. I was just so "in there" I didn't care what buffs I cast. It ended up being all of them... Again, it was a lame thing to do and I'm really -really- sorry about it.

But hey, I can give you a little tip on how to beat a paladin in return, alright? Heck, I'll even make it public!

Now, you did not really have the chance as I came invisible and hasted (

) but throw a dispell my way and I turn into a little kitten. It is perhaps hard for all characters to get dispell just like that, but if you have the option.. go ahead.

Now, something completely different!

I agree completely with Jimmy on the Holy Sword spell. It is a lame spell that really takes away the whole point of the rarity of Holy Avengers. Casting -that- spell is what I am most ashamed of.

Now, in some defence of myself I have to say that a fully buffed paladin is a man with a god on his shoulder. It should not be an easy task to beat him when he is like that. However, if you could somehow banish his power he is just like any other man...

Either that, or run.

lankycheese · Post by **lankycheese** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:45 am

To me, its sort of a giant sissor paper rock game, but where the rock can beat everything.... I play a Cleric/Fighter, I can defeat most fighters simply because they don't have a dispell. So Fighters are paper, and Cleric's and Paladin's are Scissors. Now throw in a mage, or another nut job cleric (damn you Jimmy!) who has dispell and I will fall pretty fast, or if I am really on my toes I will get by with some clever tactics.
I was having some duels with Meld and Jecht last night, and Ive decided that against fighter types GS is a really cheap and cheesy spell, but if I am outnumbered or against mages, it is a must and one of the only ways to keep alive.
By the sounds of things these new melee items will be really great and help to balance a lot of things out.

PS: Just remembered this topic is about aligments not balancing...

Winky Willis · Post by **Winky Willis** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:53 am

Meldvion.. its not your fault, please don't think this is some kind of rant at anyone. It just worried me slightly when someone mentioned 20 paladins...

Maroo.. your not really getting the point of my post. Maroo has no more chance beating Meldvion than Ebenezer has, has she.

I like the ideas of the Paladins being super tough it makes the fights and the actual fact that they are actually paladins more realistic. But I'm sure that Fera/Meld/Holy all want a challenge as well.. I can't think if anything more boring for you guys than never rarely being threatened in mellee pvp.

Just a point though.. all prc classes need to find masters to level. But in game mechanic terms they are all weaker than a paladin.. perhaps something should be done like that.. make a master pupil thing included.

Another issue is.. The Nergs have in all the numbers only two pure active tanks.. Ebenezer and Sable (( I know we have others but they aren't near max level yet )). Both are built to statisically as tough as they can be we just don't cut it against the paladins the very chars we need to be at least holding up a little.

The only way the Nergs are gona beat them otherwise is bringing on the wizards.. and we do have quite a few in our ranks. But then we are back to the timestop scenario which I am sure no one wants.. even the wizards..

PS
We purposefully logged on with Eb, Kerra and Kasur last night as it was full of good chars.. and it was great fun. Visiting Winky in jail was the icing on cake... freaky.

Arto Amen · Post by **Arto Amen** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:59 am

PvP will never be balance as such.
There will always be greater and lesser.
Holy sword, hmm, nasty weapon against evil.
The actual non PvP side of the server is actually balancing out fairly nicely, with my only gripe being enemies with insta buffs.
Was good fun battling the good guys as kerraccan even if his was no tuffer than a goblin to a ogre beserker

One day he'll bring an undead army and smite Lictor and any other good guys in his path, alas that wont be for a long long time...

Now if he could only become best buds with that undead dragon, whats his name, yes, raven, perhaps take him for a stroll, let him much some paladins, use there Holy Avengers as tooth picks. He must need the exercise being couped up in that dank dark dungeon all the time.

Hailfall · Post by **Hailfall** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:42 am

Winky Willis wrote:
Maroo.. your not really getting the point of my post. Maroo has no more chance beating Meldvion than Ebenezer has, has she.

Sorry I totally misread your post.. I apologize..

Holly · Post by **Holly** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:43 am

I would have to agree that the Holy Sword spell replaces the need for a paladin to have to quest for, or even earn, a Holy Avenger.

Kell · Post by **Kell** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:00 am

Holly wrote:I would have to agree that the Holy Sword spell replaces the need for a paladin to have to quest for, or even earn, a Holy Avenger.

So. Would that mean we can axe it and make it +3 max? That's what happened to all the other weaponenhancing spells too. And perhaps change the normal dispell on hit to lesser dispell on hit, if possible?

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:10 am

Kell wrote:
Holly wrote:I would have to agree that the Holy Sword spell replaces the need for a paladin to have to quest for, or even earn, a Holy Avenger.
So. Would that mean we can axe it and make it +3 max? That's what happened to all the other weaponenhancing spells too. And perhaps change the normal dispell on hit to lesser dispell on hit, if possible?

I would scrap it as a spell altogether and allow those players who play Paladins to be granted such a sword when as Holly says they have earned the right to wield it. ((In saying that players such as Holly and Meld have more than earned the right to have such an item in my view))

jekyl81 · Post by **jekyl81** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:16 am

Well, it is really powerful, but then again it last for 20 rounds at lvl 20 no longer, and you dont get to use it that often as you dont get too many slots for that spell lvl... by comparison The Hordes of Underdark brought a lot of things people grumb about still, like IGMS, Bibglys, Blaa blaa blaa,

theres allways some problem with some class, Pally gets a few spells to use/day, fighter gets 3 times as many feats, clerics get a whole Bag of buffs to use for protection and attack's, Wizards get to fry any Melee char there is with 1 or 2 spells, Rogues get 10d6 Sneak attck, evasion( +

rogue unique feats after lvl 10) Bards get boosting and cursing songs + protection spell as the wizard class has (ethernal vissage, Wounding whispers) Druids get Powerful summons and some unique spells with multible or unique effects (Natures balance, Grumble, Drown) Barbarians

get RAGE/Greater RAGE and damage reduction + uncanning dodge, Monks get immunitys and great saves +150% speed boost, improved evasion , the only truely down toned class is ranger, the only really good thing they get is Favored enemy, they get some spells, but nothing powerful, they get an animal companion, but it's not as good as the druids version.

there you have it, all most every class has it's good sides and bad sides, you have to lear to play them, to find that edge and apply tactics against enemys that have the upper hand, retriet if you need to, take some distance to the enemy, heal try again... every one has a weak spot.. every one,

Loki · Post by **Loki** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:38 am

Hhe don't agree with you there Jek.. mages can be knockdown to be killed yeah? Acid sheath.. sure your killing them.. but who will die first? Barbarian.. +3 damage reduction.. well.. not much really is it? I'd agree that its not and should not all be about every class being equal.. and yes every class has a weakness.. but they are far from equal and there are times when a little nerfing is required to keep the balance from swinging out of control in favour of one class.. (if for no other reason than all that happens if one class is much harder then the others you get loads of that character type running about.. ie the 101 clerics pre the great cleric nerffing a few months back)