I think paladins are too strong

[BeyondRedemption]

The law of a town is very different than the law handed down to a Paladin from a god. A paladin may be doing good for his god by breaking the law of a town.

[Jimmy]

One more... Justice. perhaps he felt it had to be dealt no matter what? So he had to use every advantage he had to make sure Justice was dealt. I'm not Meldvion, so I wouldn't know. Other Paladins would do differently, it's up to the individual as to what they'd do.

Hmmm by that logic.. its okay to wipe out all the inhabitants of a village known to harbor someone evil.. in the name of justice.. at any price? Hmm not sure that yer average Paladin would go for that one to be honest..

How on earth does that relate to Meldvion killing 4 KNOWN EVIL Nergalites without warning? No innocents were involved, and if there were the situation would be entirely different... I hope

Paladins feel the right to hunt and kill people that they don't like...

That's rediculous. Paladins kill EVIL to protect the innocent and dispense justice etc. Not people they don't like.

As for Paladins presuming they are the law, this contradicts there alginment slightly too.. shouldn't it be C/G characters that think they are above the law?
.. surely we have got to the point were the Redboots woudl say " Er actually you aren't the law.. keep killing people for "your " religious beliefs.. you get more than jail."

Redboots haven't been doing their job lately. It's up to the Paladin to do what he can. The town laws are flawed as well, so innocents are being hurt (i.e. Nara kidnapping etc) so the Paladin has to do what he can.

Sable is Nergals Warlord... his champion.. the whole faction agreed on it. We have paladins hacking down our followers.. surely old grubby would muster up some weapon for his champion.. to fight off all those.. above the law, unmandated, uber Paladins.. that are KOS'n his followers.

Then it's up to the DMs do give him something like that if he's earned it.

Nice discussion by the way

Right back at ya'!

[lankycheese]

The law of a town is very different than the law handed down to a Paladin from a god. A paladin may be doing good for his god by breaking the law of a town.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


P.S: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jimmy]

*nod* Well Said.

[Jehannum]

This debate is one of the reasons that I like Melds idea of a paladin guild. I think it would be nice to establish standards to adhere to and it would be nice for the evil players to understand what to expect. I have seen this rear its head many times.

[Loki]

One more... Justice. perhaps he felt it had to be dealt no matter what? So he had to use every advantage he had to make sure Justice was dealt. I'm not Meldvion, so I wouldn't know. Other Paladins would do differently, it's up to the individual as to what they'd do.

Hmmm by that logic.. its okay to wipe out all the inhabitants of a village known to harbor someone evil.. in the name of justice.. at any price? Hmm not sure that yer average Paladin would go for that one to be honest..

How on earth does that relate to Meldvion killing 4 KNOWN EVIL Nergalites without warning? No innocents were involved, and if there were the situation would be entirely different... I hope

It relates on the basis I was taking your argument to its extreme.. illustrating what I see as its flaw.. Justice.. no matter what was your argument.. thats what I was highlighting as a flaw.. (as a side note.. read what it says on an Invis Pot.. )

[Arto Amen]

Read all of the above,

I alot of it Think it boils down to PvP conduct.

Lawful characters, regardless of g/n/e

should place victims on disliked before combat. (if they are attacked, put attacker on dislike until they have smited them)

Chaotic characters, regardless of g/n/e

Can do either.

Neutral characters, regardless of g/n/e

should atleast rp warning / try to aviod / threaten before combat.

These simple rules would prevent disagreements amongst Rping Pvpers.


I personally think neutral characters are the hardest type of character to RP correctly.
Balancing / nerfing spells is upto DM's ultimately, and to be honest, how many pure paladins above lvl 10 are there 4? If there where 20 then it would be a real issue.

[Brigadier Syndir Isendur]

On top of that the Red boots are seriously biased... Nergalites guilty Paladins above the law. For me with Ebenezer this causes a problem I am lawful, I haven't broke any laws in the village ever I am just "evil and guilty" before I have been ajudged to have done anything. The Paladins are ranting and raving about the good of their god and then beating the crap out of anyone that disagrees with them... its dodgy ground.. Why aren't any Redboots telling them to back down and stop inciting trouble, causing trouble and actually killing people for disagreeing with them.

I think the above statement is "seriously biased".

I reviewed our arrest reports, they do not show Ebenezer ever being arrested. However, when Ebenezer was attacked by Eriq, Eriq was arrested for his crime.

I can give numerous examples of Paladins being arrested. I was the Redboot who arrested Holly for attacking Maelstrom. And Meldvion has been arrested on several occasions. And when Meldvion's smitings did become a problem, we told him to "back down and stop inciting trouble". As far as I can tell, he did. He now does his smiting outside the village.

If crimes are comitted in the village, seaside, or farmlands, we will pursue the crimanals to the ends of the earth to extract justice. However, the Redboots are not a global police force. As Melthavion wrote in our mandate....

You are guards and defenders of the village, and the village is your number one concern. Venturing into the wilderness is inherently dangerous, and a risk all who do so assume. But there should be some feeling of safety to those who are in the village.

It's true. You don't see Billy Graham smiting Hari Chrisnas at the airport. But as Jeh has pointed out in the past, it's folly to assign Judeo-Christan morality to Dasaria's fantasy setting. In the fantasy world we live in, Paladin's smite evil.

Paladin's are the strongest of the melee classes. But, I would not call them overpowered. Syndir, fully prepared, has beaten a fully prepared Meldvion and a fully prepared Zenthrax. So, I think the nergalites loss had more to do with surprise and readiness than the power of the paladin class.

[Judas]

Now following someone outside of town and circumventing the law so you can twist it to kill someone isn’t a lawful good act .. It’s a lawful evil act, or even perhaps natural or chaotic evil depending on the way the character is played, but mostly its lawful evil and not in anyway lawful good

You live within the lands of Dasaria and neither the Queen of Dasaria nor the Redboots of the village have made these people KoS, then all you are doing is using a loophole within the law of the land to legally commit murder .. A very lawful evil act

Now I know the Pally description about killing evil at all costs … But that’s a DnD PnP description.. Were not talking about a DnD PnP campaign thou.. Were talking about NWN Dasaria, it’s a completely different beast .. There are evil KoS characters out there for Pallys to rain there wrath down upon within the law

[Meldvion]

The reason why Meldvion should't think he is above the law.. is that he then shouldn't be considered lawful. He ain't lawful anymore he ain't a Paladin.

Alright... you want me to explain every bit of my actions? FINE!

Reason for slaying Ebenezer - They fought the other day but did not finish it, he felt the need to put things to a conclusion.

Reasons for Slaying the other dwarf (The name eludes me) - Mel has known (insert name here) for a long time. He knows what he is capable of and what he has done, thus felt justice had to be brought upon him.

Reasons for slaying Karach (If that is your name, I really can't remember well today) - He is undead.

Reason for not putting you all on Dislike - I forgot. I don't do these things often and I was in quite a rouse. Really -really- sorry about this one.

Reason for attacking invisible - Mel felt, at the time, that he didn't have to show any honor to the lowy worms of nergal. However he is now slightly ashamed of it as it was not something he would normaly do. Remember, Mel is hot-headed.

Reason for it being lawfull - Outside the city walls the laws of Dasaria ceaces and the laws of Girru applies. (For Mel)

Reason for the attack 1 - To set an example. Mel will stand neatly and take all you throw at him in town, but outside he will show no mercy to the wicked ones.

Reason for the attack 2 - Mel has taken an oath to battle evil wherever he may find it. Leaving you alone is (often) not an option.

Why it was not an evil act - As I said before, a Gooder killing an Evil man can not be an evil act. What you seem to forget is that -you- are Sauroman. -You- are the orcs. -You- are Sauron. Did you except the forces of good to just let you go around and not kill you since it is "evil" to smite evil? Mel didn't go out of town to slay "Barry the gentle farmer". Mel killed 4 evil lowlifes. Saying that slaying evil is "evil" is a really daft thing to say, I reccon.

Why Mel will follow your outside and smite you instead of doing it in town - He may have a responsibility to his god, but also one to the nation, the village and the townspeople. What will be best for those? You have to understand that to Mel, you are just like the KoS. I will never -EVER- constrict myself to only killing KoS people because otherwise it's "unlawfull" and "evil".

I don't mean to be rude, but I've done this for 1 1/2 years. I've gotten compliments by several people that I do a "good job". I like to think that, that is the fact as well. Sorry to sound snobbish, but you've gotten me really pissed with going all personal on my arse.

[Jerio Caine]

I can't understand how you Winky, Former Rati, a Well-known, loved by the most of this server for stories and characters depth, that you, with ALL this experience can accuse Mel for not playing a Paladin correctly... Haven't you seen the on-going discussion in the other thread? All that has been said is Meldvion, he is the zealous Knight, he is the Man who serves the people, he is the guy with god on his shoulder, he is the one who agonizes every evil-guys mind. He IS the very definition of what a Paladin is! Sure, Mel might not be the lawfullest guy, but he's not far from it! I remember smiting Kell by his side in town, we did not do it because the Law told us to, but because Kell is Evil, pure Evil, and Mel Paladinized him (Smote him with all rights.) Now, where you get that just because he Slaughtered your band he ain't lawful and has commited an evil act from seem like Science-fiction to me as, as I've read it, he just Paladinized ya, he did everything according to the Code he follows, the code HE follows which is to slay Evil. He killed you and 3 other Well-known Nergalites! End of story. Mel of girru slays 4 Nergalites. That is actually what I'd like to see more! he did what he should and he did it perfectly!

//Davo

[Judas]

The thing is … And this is the important part … 90% of the players on Dasaria will say that I’m wrong and that Pallys should attack evil on sight because that’s what a Pally is and dose … So I’m out voted and in that sense I am wrong .. So you can see that my problem wasn’t with you at all and that I wasn’t attacking you in anyway, its more a case of that I disagree with the masses and that I wasn’t smart enough to bring this up without using anyone as a example like I did with you

On another note, Judas is evil … He is a thug and a thief, there are hundreds of people just like him in the slums of every city across the land, but I don’t remember any great stories about pallys running through the slums of a city like a hot knife through butter killing everyone … Why should Judas be killed for walking to the shops ?

[Loki]

I still think yer great Meld.. not so sure about the invis part but the rest I agree with.. i think it is a simple enough statement of fact to say there are constraints for playing a paladin on this server (in fact any server that allows evil PC's) that has to be taken into consideration.. and with those constraints taken into consideration you and several other players of paladins do a damm good job.

[Winky Willis]

The reason... I have a problem with the actions of Meldvion are pretty plain to see.

Hot headed Meldvion buffed up, hasted, invis'd... summoned his holy sword of Girru. Then with honour and bravery.... assinated two unaware opponents.. without warning... and as seeing as Jerio mentioned Rati... the above tactics aren't all that disimiliar from Rati's.

The day its "acceptable" for Paladins to stealth kill enemies.. will be a sad day indeed.

[Meldvion]

Do you really think anyone would say "Please cast your spells now because here I am, all done. Oh, by all means, take your time..."

Meldvion is perhaps a bit thick but he's not stupid, nor does he have a death wish. As I said, the Invis part he is ashamed of. He/I did not expect to find you so soon outside of the village and can you blame him for taking his chance? I sure wouldn't.