An Open Letter to Dasaria (OOC)

Holly · Post by **Holly** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:55 pm

Kell wrote:If you deal with known evil characters, a paladin will see you as evil. That's not the fault of the paladin, he's just doing his "job". It's the fault of the one who's -choosing- to deal with those characters. And his responsibility too.

What is evil, well.. that depends on the views of the paladin him or herself. Though there is a certain code Paladins should answer to, there is no standard on how a paladin should really react. Aslong as it is within the code, a paladin can be as funky as he or she wishes.. Paladins can be misguided too. That's what we have attonement for.

The above statement is almost perfect. I would add also "that's why some paladins lose thier ability forever, becoming fighters."

Kell made an interesting point here: Many Paladins believe there is no such thing as neutral. In a time of great war and demonic invasion of this plane, you are either friend or enemy, ally or collaborator. Not all paladins choose this logic, but some might and it's acceptible to me as fitting.

Whether or not the society the paladin is in upholds this perspective is up to the DMs and the internal logic of the campaign. Dasarian law would not allow a paladin to kill someone in the street because the paladin swears up-and-down his quarry was evil. I, for one, enjoy the difficulties this puts the paladin in, with regard to society, morals, and the law.

Remember....a paladin is supposed to see himself as "enlightened", seeing the world with eyes more open than his fellows, because it is his god that has given him his particular truth, duty, and responsibility. Some paladins might choose that the laws of his god are of higher account than the laws of man, so when a paladin must choose one over the other, how does this affect his alignment? Many paladins are played in that they were chosen for this role, as opposed to choosing it for themselves. With this calling comes sacrifice, and if the paladin is not prepared to sacrifice all for the greater good, even his paladin status, he should not be a paladin in the first place.

Holly · Post by **Holly** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:21 pm

Disclaimer:

The DMs have the final say in all matters Dasaria. I submit to thier combined judgement in all such decisions, only offering RP suggestions and alignment theories as a player who loves this campaign, and D & D in general.

And, heh, no...no DM asked me to add this. I just don't want this topic to end up locked. I'm learning alot from this conversation.

DM Chicken Little · Post by **DM Chicken Little** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:28 pm

Honestly, playing good is difficult. Especially in a land where most players ignore alignment unless it means they need it for a class selection. Playing lawful good is extremely difficult, part of what it means to be a Paladin.

I have long felt a paladin class should be a PrC class, and not something you get to select based on numbers, for that reason.

Holly · Post by **Holly** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:35 pm

My "Hypothetical" suggestion would be to make the Champion PrC a regular class, and the Paladin a PrC.

Yes, playing good is difficult in that many players view "good" and "boring" as synonyms, because most people are good (probably CG, or at least Chaotic Friendly) in real life and want to RP something different in a fantasy setting.

Oh my god! Carpal Tunnel! Arrrg.g.g......

Brenna E'lyana · Post by **Brenna E'lyana** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:42 pm

I am really enjoying this debate. In my opinion LG is the most difficult alignment to play, and paladin the most difficult class. I actually chose to make Delenia a Champion rather than a paladin because I was scared I could not play a paladin correctly.

As far as evil is concerned and how paladins react, I will honestly say I have never enjoyed any RP as much as when Kisanth trades insults with Rum and Drekkan. And for the record Rum is CN, not evil...but she gets that she will always be shady to Kisanth ( but I do think he knows he can count on her when their backs are against the wall and the Varanite's come calling) Sometimes I think as a whole, the players here are way too accepting of evil, which also makes playing a paladin even harder. "Look, a demon ...I shall smite it." "Oh no...you can't....it has a good heart, helped the village, etc...etc."

As we all know I have multiple personalities and play many different types, and frankly...evil is fun, CN is easy, and being good is damned hard work. But it is also very rewarding. So all you paladins out there, keep fighting the good fight!

Tyideal · Post by **Tyideal** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:27 pm

Some interesting points have been made with reference to alignment.

I completely agree that a Paladin cannot just mow someone down in town against the laws of the land unless they are EOS (effectively having their rights removed). Why? Not because the paladin could be wrong about them being evil, but rather because no crime has been commited.

It took Kisanth forever to figure this out - but being evil is not a crime in itself. Does it have to be tolerated? No. It's like the Nergal issues of old. Nerglings behaved in town and commited dark acts in SECRET. This made them appear Lawful. This is why many crusaded for the laws to be changed to reflect a good town where evil was not tolerated. And to their credit the evil ones used loopholes in the town laws to get away with plenty.. until Girru himself lit the Town Laws sign on fire in front of a bunch of people. This I feel was in part to the fact the laws were not protecting the people anymore. What good are laws if they do not protect the people that created them to live in peace and harmony?

Senseless smiting evil in town disrupts peace and sows disharmony - unless the evil is so great (EOS) it represents an unquestioned danger to the town. Speaking of codes, Kis won't fight an unarmed enemy except perhaps a known wizard who needs no weapons. Shadow and other villians have used this against him (as they very well should exploit a good man's nature) in the past.

The reason I mention this is because I think the Paladin should always have been a PrC. There are a great many challenges to playing one (both IC and OOC) and it is not for the faint of heart. It can be very rewarding to do so however, as a well played paladin can rally an entire village behind him and influence the course of events.

In my mind aiding an EOS is an act of treason to be punished by death. It is criminal and morally suspect. If I hadn't been afk when that happened Falson would have been shredded quickly by Kisanth's blade. He violated the law and acted with evil intent. The reason for doing so was OOC - BUT before you go crying for the EOS consider this: There was a time where evil characters in town had their gear carried outside the city gates so they could get it. Given this has occured in the past I see little reason for OOC help unless it is by the DMs.. and in this case I feel they rightly held Falson accountable for his action.

I think playing great evil ALSO has consequences but I am sure the great evil ones we have can attest to it's rewards as well. This might explain why so many people are neutral? Afraid to take the plunge?

Another thing - call it a pet peeve. An extreme example but, if you hang around Great Evil Bad Guy talking, laughing and making deals with him.. don't expect *anyone* much less a paladin to think you are anything but shady and at least neutral if not evil. You will never see Kis sit down and have tea with someone like Maelstrom. Which leads me to another point. Paladins don't befriend evil, they do not associate with it and they certainly don't support it. If they do they end up as the above, and what does the little boy on the road at town square think when he sees Kisanth or Meldvion chatting it up with an undead lich? So much for a great hero, he's just like all the rest of them, in it for himself. A paladin's reputation is very important - protect it!

- Kis

Holly · Post by **Holly** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:24 pm

Some interesting articles about alignment from the Official D & D website...

On Law and Chaos:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a

On Problematic Alignments:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050318a

On Paladins:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050224a

I hope they are useful.

Peregrinus · Post by **Peregrinus** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:38 pm

Actually, Kisanth holding Falson responsible IC for all that mess, while frustrating at the time for a total OOC act, (Falson has only aided EoS he became friends with before they became EoS) just led me OOC to respect you more and Kisanth. Falson, as he's interacted with Paladins more, actually tends to act more in line with their codes (in other words they affect him for the better), Aldinah had the greatest affect on him, there's a shock, but perhaps she'll have a even bigger one now...

I have trouble playing evil characters myself, unless they're evil like Falson was (LE, with such a twisted code they get along with Paladins despite being evil)... I'm too much of a good guy, and my characters reflect this.

Some things concerning Paladins here can also be applied to any character who are good and are considered heros. Falson seen hanging around enemies, chatting with them? Not anymore. Could something like what happened with Grok happen again? Quite probably, I tend to try and be friendly when it comes to PvP in hopes that people will also be friendly to me when they beat me.

Oh, and just to throw this out, mad props to Maelstrom's player, while most of the battles with Maelstrom are not fought in the open, I've had many a battle "telepathically" with him... this only servers to show just how evil he is.

Perhaps one of the problems is that the villians don't show up enough. The good characters don't get a chance to actually act "good" unless they are, in a way, preying on those around them, which causes divisiveness. So people tend to play more Neutral characters so that there is less conflict.

Here's a challenge to folks that have kept up with this thread, go out and make a true good-guy, someone who fights for good, justice, etc. Not a Paladin per se, most would call Falson a good-guy, and he's a sorcerer, but someone who is not just out for their own ends, but rather fights the fight for others. I know many of you have characters like that, and even many of the selfish characters are becoming that (Mikela for instance, is acting much less for herself anymore), but you can't force this change. I can't see Rum, for instance, suddenly becoming a goody-two-shoes, something would have to happen, something major, or lots of little things. So maybe go out and create a good guy, see the challenges, enjoy the experiance.

Peregrinus · Post by **Peregrinus** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:27 am

*bump*

This is a thread that should be read by anyone wanting to play good/paladin.

Though for the record, these discussions happened long before the Pallies got Detect Evil.

budgie1 · Post by **budgie1** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:27 am

Perhaps one of the problems is that the villians don't show up enough. The good characters don't get a chance to actually act "good" unless they are, in a way, preying on those around them, which causes divisiveness. So people tend to play more Neutral characters so that there is less conflict.

I don't know if I should be airing this in this thread...but I used Grok on several occasions as extra RP entertainment for good characters. It generaly required Grok to make contact in the village. (True seeing should leave characters with bad headaches and no paracetamol). It caused problems and I don't do it any more. However, villians aren't going to show up very often outside of any set piece roll play if there is going to be no OOC arrangements to retrieve property after dying.

BUT before you go crying for the EOS consider this: There was a time where evil characters in town had their gear carried outside the city gates so they could get it. Given this has occured in the past I see little reason for OOC help unless it is by the DMs.. and in this case I feel they rightly held Falson accountable for his action.

I have always understood that EoS characters have a responsibility to try and play their roll skillfully in order to enhance the overall enjoyment of all players, and to that end 'Grok' doesn't attack weaker PC's than himself unless they attack him or the rp demands it(and I return all their property if he kills them). If EoS is played logicaly then Grok should kill and rob everyone he can, whenever he can; the weaker the better.

It may be that I have got the wrong end of the stick so to speak but I feel that If you want evil characters to interact with the good ones on an impromptu basis, then you have to provide some sort of natural OOC break.

Rob the Mighty · Post by **Rob the Mighty** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:47 am

I have two evil characters so far, LE & NE, but neither of them have done anything illegal here yet. They both have high intelegence and good wisdom, so they are obviously not going to stir up problems for themselves with the locals unless there is good motovation to do so.

Some paladins interact with them, as they both seem quite friendly, but some detect evil right away, and won't even speak to them. fair enough.

I am just happy no one has used "I detect you are evil" as a reason to start a fight with them yet.

it seems by the posts here that people think that there are not that many "good" characters on Dasaria. Granted I am mostly around Daris, and play in PST time (GMT -8) but most of the characters I run into seem to be good aligned, or are at least played that way. I always have to watch my evil's behaviour around them so they will co-operate with my agenda.

I actualy find chaotic evil the most difficult to play, well, not to RP, but to exist. If you are chaotic in your evil actions EVERYONE wants a peice of you sooner or later. Good guys because you are doing evil unlawful things, and bad guys because you keep double crossing them to get the best advantage for yourself. I feel chaotics tend to act without thinking of the future concequences. they live and act in the now.