Power Gaming

Eragon · Post by **Eragon** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:01 pm

Don't know if this should go here, just move it if it doesn't..

I've been quirked about this for quite a while now, and I just have to get it off my chest.. I can't stand power gaming. Or power building, for that matter. And I might have a strange view on what is power gaming, but still.. It's my opinion. I may also have a strange view on what exploiting is, but it still is my opinion.

Lately I've felt like I'm one of the select few who actually still struggle to get my levels. I have two characters to level 20, my main characters, and I realize I haven't been here -that- long. Only one of them is currently 20, since I'm working on a remake of Natalia. Which has proved to take quite some time, heh. I don't understand how you can get from level 1 to 10 in just a few days. I simply don't get it. And how is that fun? I admit, low level characters are a drag, but the quicker you exceed in your leveling, the quicker you can start to complain about being bored with the character. And many do, as far as I can see. Sure, at level 20 you're powerful, you can smack people down in PvP and you can handle DM driven attacks pretty good. While that can give you a rush, how fun is that in the long run? There are high-level places, yes. My level 20 still gets her ass kicked by Koalisks, Elite Varanites, Talon, Asabi.. Anything that uses its AI tricks, heh. I just don't see the fun in it. (Wow that came out wrong.. Don't see the fun in leveling so fast, that is, heheh)

I was asked tonight to come to Palemoon with a group, where what they would be doing is trotting around in circles inside one of the temples there and collect XP and loot. I said no, I won't do that. It's easy to level that way, they said. Exactly, so I won't do it. Palemoon is a quest, and I see it as an exploit to trot around a place without really finishing the quest. Exploit was defined to me as taking advantage of a glitch in the game or something like that.. Personally, I think more things than that can be considered exploits. If you have a damn good rogue, or a mage under invis, and you sneak around Koalisk hording treasure, that's exploit. If you continuously walk around Palemoon or the lizard caves, getting loot and XP that way, I think of it as an exploit. Hence why I said it may be thought of as weird views. That is the impression I get.

I admit to having exploited the Illithids in the past, and the Watchtower of Khuvan. Doing a round and killing everything, then sitting in a corner waiting for it to respawn and do it again. Looping. I don't do that anymore. I don't like it. Well no, that's a lie. I circle the Ogre Hills and the Mino's, which, I was pointed out, may also be considered exploiting or power gaming if you see it from my angle. Sure it can. I don't like it. It makes me feel cheap. I may have an overactive guilt or something, but in my eyes, it's just not right. How to level then? Well, you do a quest, finish it, and do another one. If I do a Palemoon run, that's it. I don't stay and horde it, I finish it. If I run through the Varanite caves, I consider it done and over with. I don't usually go back within an hour or so and do it again.

I'm ranting.. My point is, I really can't stand seeing this kind of hording, this kind of gaming. Am I really the only one who feels this way?

And the other day, I was talking to some players.. A druid, or a bard, or hell, even a fighter shouldn't be able to solo Palemoon at level 10. Should they? I just find that impossible. Are all my characters poor builds? I sincerely doubt that any of my characters could do that at level 10. Natalia is 14 and still gets her ass whooped out there alone.

I can't stand to see these power builds, who just barge through everything with little to no resistance. It's probably just me being a grumpy old wench, but I don't like it. Also, I can't stand seeing melee casters. A wizard, for example, shouldn't go into melee with a bunch of Ogres, or Minotaurs, or, heck, anything! They're casters! Pick a familiar that isn't as fragile as a butterfly if you want to pick fights with the big guys. I -only- go melee with my casters if I'm burned out on spells and I can see that I have a possibility of actually winning the fight. If not I run screaming like the little girl I am and pray that I will get away in time. A fighter is a fighter, a mage is a mage, and a rogue is a rogue. Mix 'em up how the hell ya want, but a pure wizard shouldn't do melee fighting, even if he has Flame Weapon!

Feh.. I think I'm done for now.. I had to rant. I will be mighty impressed if anyone actually reads through all this, heh. Bleh..

*Moves into a dark little corner while grumbling*

Oosey · Post by **Oosey** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:02 am

I'm a powergamer.

I'm also a Role Player, I like the mathematics involved when making a powerful build but I absolutely love the Role Playing and character interaction. There's a line between exploiting and powergamming one not to be confused or crossed. Powergaming, to me at least, is enjoying the mathematics behind your character and stiving to be the smartest mathematician

whereas Exploiting is using a bug to better your character or circumstances.

Everyone is different, some people love the interaction only, some love the power gamming. Dasaria is a world catering to both worlds, it's not hack and slash, it's not RP only, it's both one of the key thigns I love about this place

(2nd to the fantastic community

)

I do agree, when it comes to quests, they should be done as a quest and not looped around continuously, but areas non quest related where it's just bad guys that spawn, I don't see a problem with running around in circles. Loot-whoring quest areas, NOT cool.

With regards to power buidls, ala wizards Pwning ogres in melee, unless they're exploiting a bug, mages in no way should win in melee (with the exception to polymorph

)

Good thread Eragon

Eragon · Post by **Eragon** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:31 am

*is impresseed*

I agree with ya Oose, Dasaria is a little bit of both, and for that I am glad. I too can engage in the mathematics of my character.. However, I suck at that stuff. And when I make a new character, it's because I've come up with neat character quirks, or a good background story. Not because I've figured out a way to make Ye Powerful Character.

s4rx7 · Post by **s4rx7** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:25 am

why not both, good story and good build... whats the problem with that?

I know some Melee chars that can solo PM completing everything at 14 ish but it is by no means easy for them. I've tried with a mage of that lvl but I get my but kicked.

This maybe where Mule's idea would be handy, so you need to visit several areas to complete a quest. It also has the bonus of sending poeple to areas they may not have been before. That darn forest is a bit empty, maybe more people would venture in if they could find that ore or speak with the dead guy...

Thayad is a good quest though, by the time you've got the head I've killed enough on the way in and out. PM however takes so long to get there and well you can only finish it if your the first one there.

Boon · Post by **Boon** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:53 am

I'm like you Nat, I bite when it comes to the mathmatics part of the game. But like Oose mentioned this server caters to both RPers and PGers. Still using exploits to PG is frowned upon by the devs I'm sure.

Oh and you have 2 level 20s, Nat? *dreams of having one someday*

s4rx7 wrote:why not both, good story and good build... whats the problem with that?

No problem with that. But it is usually turns out to be a good build, then a good story.

lankycheese · Post by **lankycheese** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:14 am

I'm like Oose, I get a real buzz on the maths and mechanics behind the game, and thinking up strategies from spell combonations and the likes. It's all about thinking outside the sqaure. Most of the really good and battle winning spells, for a Cleric anyway, are looked past by alot of players.

The sort of powergaming that annoys me is when people make real power builds that don't work IC at all, example would be a paladin sorcerer character. What I do is think up a type of character, maybe I get inspired from a movie or book of some sort, then see how I can put that character into the NWN engine. But lately I've been having alot of fun trying to RP the pure class builds in the game.

And with regards to farming for levels and loot

Heh, I'm a definate culprit there. The fact that I don't really like leveling much in the first place but love having a level 20 character is why I tend to do it in large sprints and then just stop. I created a new character the other day, and it's the first time I've been out leveling in over 6 months. I just enjoy the towns politics and RP too much

But aslong as a character has a story behind them and actually Role Plays, I see no problem with the above definitions of powergaming. K, I advice you to never play a MMORPG

Kell · Post by **Kell** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:02 am

I used to loathe powergaming and powerbuilding. But eh.. I kinda made it a personal hobby to try to get the most out of my characters and I found out that sometimes I am doing fine at it too.

Slap me silly, but the numbers are great. I loathe numbers in real life, but in gaming well... thrill? Heh. I'm a geek, what can I say. Have to get my numberfix in some way or another, and since I don't study informatica, I have to do it like this. It's mandatory ;p

Anyways.. Yeah, Dasaria is a bit of both I suppose. It's no use really to get yourself worked up over it, because people will always do that really. And you can dislike it, but in the end you find out that it's really no use to dislike it. Because that is what the numbers are for. That is why you can see them. You can see them so that you can check them out and see what makes them higher. Or lower.

I agree that running circles at some place to spawn and respawn enemies is a little wonky. But hell, sometimes you can just feel like bashing.. Or powerleveling. And aslong as you don't exploit -real- bugs for it, just exploit the fact that enemies respawn, well... If we didn't want them to respawn, we'd have set them like Raven. Once per server reset. The possibility is there, if you want to use it; go ahead. If you don't like it; don't do it.

edit: I might be stepping on pins and needles here, but do you dislike it because of principle because you think it's wrong, or do you dislike it because you're not good at it?

I used to hate it because I was not good at it. But I learned the tricks and now it's become more interesting to try. That's honesty from my part about it.

Brenna E'lyana · Post by **Brenna E'lyana** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:47 am

I have played here for 2 years and have exactly 1 level 20th character. People have different playing styles, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. When I want mindless bashing, I bring on a character and go to an area with respawns and bash away...yes the xp is nice and she may get some loot, but I am really there just to kill things, especially if I am alone.

My biggest peeve are level 10 characters with koa'lisk or Raven gear. I do not mean one item, given by a friend. I mean completely kitted out in gear that they shouldn't even know about for 5 more levels.

But again, to each his own. I love it when one of my characters finds that perfect item for them. Yeah, one of my old one's may have one just like it....but why switch it over. It means nothing then. *shrugs* again....to each his own. Dasaria has lasted so long because it is a combination of RP and powergaming...and as much as some of the RP's(myself included) bitch about the powergamers, I do not think we would like this place as much if it became hard core RP.

My 50 cents worth

Jimmy · Post by **Jimmy** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:24 am

I'm pretty much the same with Oose and Cheese, as usual

It took me over a year to get my first level 20. And so far I only have 2 level 20's after being here since November 2002. I think of a fun character to play RP wise, then make sure they're the best they can be (personality wise and power wise). It's just how I play. Powerlevelling is boring as hell, but we've all done it. Camping quest areas is a no no in my book. But the great thing about Dasaria is it's freedom, you play whatever way to feel comfortable. Sometimes I go out and kill stuff. Sometimes I go for months without getting a level then get 5 levels in 2 weeks *shrug*.

Dasaria rules.

Astamyre · Post by **Astamyre** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:36 am

Personally I have two frames of reference on the 'power gamer' topic one good one bad, I'll explain below.

Power Gamers: This group is bad, generaly all they see is numbers and will exploit them for everything they can get, they typically have a philosaphy of high level is everything, and I MUST be the best and have the best items at any cost, role-playing be damned. A character is numbers not a personality.
Once they get their they complain that they are not challenged and if pandered to force others to power game just to be able to take on what they are typically meant to be doing, therby constantly pushing up the power one needs to play normally.
Often they also have the attitude that if you are not like them you are inferior in some way.

Power Players: You may think this is the same thing but let me explain. These are the good ones. Typically these players work the mechanics of the game to get the character they want (in D&D/NWN terms this is a bit of number crunching, and often needed) typically based around a character concept at its core, generaly they will play to their characters personality and actually have respect for others and work towards filling that goal while in staying mostly in character and play within the bounds of the world. They can at times get bored but usually move onto another character but can occasionaly push the world power up a notch.
From what I can tell Oosey, Lanky and Jimmy fall into this category, I have no idea of others since I haven't seen them play much.

Finally out side the power pool are the rest of us:
The 'normal' players: Typically we have role-play over everything else, we create characters typically around an idea, and work with it while keeping in mind the idea of how a real person would be in the setting when we create characters.
Unfortunatly this group finds if there are reasonable numbers of the other two groups, things quickly become difficult and "out of our league", since challenges are often seen as too easy when the above players are in battle or adventuring, and the normal characters are not realy in the spotlight much.
Unfortuntaly this group is likely to get discouraged when we dont get a chance to shine at least a little (everyone likes to shine occasionally), and occasionally get overlooked when it comes to designs as they are typically the quiet complainers, for a while anyway.

Thats my take and generaly I try to keep in mind both power players and the normal players, I have the skills to be both yet I prefer the normal side of the fence, thats me

, in design and fous for things, while minimising the capabilities of power gamers.

lankycheese · Post by **lankycheese** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:09 am

Just to clear up a few things though, I am here first and foremost for my Role Play!

But at the same time I am still playing NWN and DnD. I come from playing a long line of RTS's and I guess that's where my strategy obsession comes into play. But the fact that I can aim for so much more then just the awesome loot and uber character. I can make a character that is respected, and has challenges and troubles of his owns. He can attain titles and ranks, and glory and heroism much further beyond the normal limits of this game.

There are servers out there that are much better tailered for the power player. But I chose Dasaria as the Role Play here is just that much, well, cozier so to speak

The goals of RP is what make this game really fun for me. If I really wanted powergaming I would go back to WoW, but that just doesnt have the RP depth that this place does.

Eragon · Post by **Eragon** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:02 pm

Kell wrote:edit: I might be stepping on pins and needles here, but do you dislike it because of principle because you think it's wrong, or do you dislike it because you're not good at it?

No, I'm sure someone could teach me if I asked, it's not that. It's principle. And while I can see the fun in having a powerful character, I don't see how it's fun to get 15 or so levels in like 2 weeks. I get frustrated if it's -too- slow, yes, but I don't want my character to swoosh up in levels that fast. It's no fun, in my opinion.

I'm here mainly for the RP. But I love the hack and slash side of it, and yes, it would quickly get boring if it was a pure RP server. What I wanted to whine about here was the farming I keep seeing.

Fate_Aki · Post by **Fate_Aki** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:06 pm

I have been called a power gamer and have been complemented on my ability to Role play. Lucky for me I'm a Gemini. I can be good and bad. I do want the most for my characters while remaining in their roles.

The upside of powergaming as I see it is the ability to survive. More often than not I prefer to stop short of a kill or if I'm loosing then I do my best to flee the fight. Only if the RP of the situation prevented the possiblilty of a calm outcome or in kill or be killed situations do I complete the kill. Just ask Drek and Rum. Their out for blood now, but I didn't kill them. Then Oye99's character and Feron later came upon me with invisiblity, walked into my spells effect or otherwise failed their saves and were blinded. If I let you two live I know you both would have come back and slaughtered me.

I firmly believe that if you can build a strong character then you should. How you RP that character is more important than how you build it anyways. A good Rp'r will be able to talk their way out of a situtation instead of fight their way out. When that fails, however, number crunching and tactics are your fallbacks.

Peregrinus · Post by **Peregrinus** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:15 pm

According to Astamyre I would be a power player, it doesn't take much for me to calculate out a nice build for something and know how to impliment it. I have one level 20 character, it took him three months of gameplay for him to get there and he was almost exclusively played.

Actually, I find that the longer it takes for the character to get to 20 the more respect they build up. People who power-build quickly to 20 have a powerful, but unknown and frankly often boring, character. Falson took a long time to get to 20, but along the way made many friends and did many things. I only started power leveling him around 16 and that was with the Illythid, but even then, from 19 to 20 happened when he was out aiding some lower level characters.

As to mages in melee, I'm guilty of that... Yes, Falson has and uses a Katana. Why? Because I like to, damnit, and so does Falson. I burned the feats on exotic weapon and weapon focus, I am going to use them. Why? Frankly, there are creatures that are litterally not worth the spell to kill them. Other times the melee comes to Falson, and he proves that the Katana is not just for show. Its a flavor thing, he is pure sorc, but lacks ANY shapeshift spells, so makes up for it by having a good sword that he knows how to use. There has been more than once where having that sword has saved Falson's ass, the first that pops into my mind was the final battle against the Dark Heirophant that Cirran ran. The battle was so well balanced I RAN OUT OF SPELLS before we were done and had to pull the Katana, drop flame weapon on it, and fight the last couple of Dark Druids and Dark Heirophant like that (in fact, got the kill blow with my Katana

).

As to the sorc/paladin build, I can think of ONE good RP reason to do 10 Pally/10 Sorc or something like that (15 sorc/5 Pally maybe, but never 19 sorc/ 1 pally). And that would be a Paladin of Ea, god of magic. I actually think I should do that character one day... hmmm *goes off to plot*

*comes back* Wait, I wasn't done...

The "circling" an area for respawn and loot I term "farming." Just for the refference.

I have been known to farm areas before, mainly Illythids with Falson, occasionally the undead tower, and more recently the new asabi temple thing... (got Lee from lvl 13 to 14 there... Is a lvl 13 character suppost to be able to solo that green dragon?). I don't see a huge problem with it... except when its the only thing a character does. Lee, for instance, is so rarely played that leveling him is unusual. I had not explored the new temple, felt like doing it with Lee, found out it was good XP, snuck around for a few days, leveled, and left... I guess basically what I'm saying is that farming is acceptable if only used occasionally rather than being the only thing a character does. Also, farming can lead to some interesting RP in the downtime while a group waits for things to respawn, allows characters to get to know each other.

Eragon · Post by **Eragon** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:52 pm

I'm against farming on all sorts of levels. I see no reason to be bitchy about it when it's in areas like the Farmlands, Ogre Hills, Bunker Hill, Hunting Grounds.. Whatever.. But when it's a -quest- area, it's just not right. Quest areas usually carry better loot than other places I think, which is why most people stick around and farm. I have even known people who let their character stay in the treasure room when you finish the undead tower.. Just log that character in every 30 minutes or so, they treasure will have respawned, and you pick it up again. That makes my stomach turn, I can't believe people would do that.

As for the mages... A mage has a hit die 4. It starts with only basic feats, and while yes, you can take those feats that are required to become proficient with weaspons, I still don't like it. A mage, from the D&D based rules, not mine, is a weak person who has to rely in his magic abilities to survive. And I really don't see why a sorcerer has to go into melee, even if the creature isn't "worth it". Blow off a low level spell, and you still have tons to use.

I just don't think the idea of a mage waving a heavy weapon which requires training and skill to use, is something that fits into the D&D setting, or should even be possible. Each for their own, sure..