Spell Change Request - Greater Planar Binding

[Peregrinus]

On my rebuild of Falson I picked up Greater Planer Binding. This was immediately proven to be a mistake overall (though I'm trying to work with it). The spell itself is nifty, but has a huge downsize unlike any other summon spell in the game: the summon only sticks around for 1 rnd/lvl. Planer Binding (and the lesser form I think) summons act like any other summon, sticking around until they die.

So basically, would it be outside the realm of possibilities to get it changed to be more in line with the other summon spells?

[Kell]

The difference between Summon Creature and Planar Ally (check your phb here, planar ally is the spell previous to planar binding, but bioware just didn't put that one in) is that with Planar Ally, the outsider gets a save, makes an independant attempt to escape and must be invidually persuaded to aid you. Summoned Creatures have nothing like that. They are outsiders, but they help you to the best they can. They don't have a choice.

Summon Creature and Planar Binding are two totally different types of spells. Planar Binding, Greater Planar Binding and Gate have -nothing- to do with the summoning of creatures, aside from the fact you summon them as well and that they are both of the conjuration school.

I don't see a reason for extending them. The creatures are more powerful, so they stick around for lesser time.

[JaeEleutheria]

I think what he's asking for is consistency with the planar ally spells. From what I have used, Greater planar binding, the spell he's talking about, is the only one of the three planar ally spells that even has a time duration. The other two act just like summoning spells without a time duration.

That's just what I know.

[Peregrinus]

Jae's exactly right... she just got to responding before me.

[Kell]

Duration Planar Binding: 1 hr/lvl.

Duration Greater Planar Binding: 1 round/lvl

Duration Gate: 1round/lvl.

That's copied directly from Kell's spellbook.

[Peregrinus]

Again, that doesn't change my argument to change them all to be in line with one another, there is no good reason why Greater Planer and Gate should last shorter than Lesser Planer and Planer. I would personally prefer to see them adjusted upwards to 1/hr a lvl in that case, but if you want to, why not adjust the lower ones down to 1/rnd a lvl.

[Redder]

Oh yes, I can see it now. Some evil cleric who is able to "accidently forgets to use protection from evil spell" bring forth 7 balors in the middle of the village where each one hangs around for 40 minutes. Ouch!

Oh, would I do that?

[Jehannum]

A balor is far too powerful to hang around like a pet, I think. Ive seen both of those spells put to effective use. I hear you, but I dont think it warrants a change. By all means though continue if you have a compelling point. I will be happy to hear.

[Kell]

The more powerful the demon you are trying to keep in your own favour, the more difficult it is to keep it up for long and the sooner you will collapse and be exhausted by fighting the will of the demon.

I really don't see why a high level summon would be just as easy as a low level summon. In that case it would be futile to have spell levels. A level 9 spell would be worth as much as a lvl 1 spell, as it obviously would be just as easy to access, achieve and maintain.

[Peregrinus]

At higher levels your will and skill have grown to the point where you should be able to maintain the spells as long, the reason it takes you longer to achieve it is because you have to have the skill in the first place.

And while your argument about "battling the will" makes sense if you're calling a devil or demon and perhaps Slaads (and to be perfectly frank a devil is likely to want to work with you a long time then call in the favor later), but makes no sense if you're calling on celestials, since they are willing to help out in battles against great evil.

[Crimson Knightmare]

Falson.. Keep in mind please that "Greater Planer Binding" ALSO depends on Align.. Your comment is hypocritical

but makes no sense if you're calling on celestials, since they are willing to help out in battles against great evil.

What if your evil.. If you raise the duration for this then your raising the duration for everything not just your Celestial "pet/slave" Whatever you wana call it.

Though keep in mind in this discussion that may come off a little short but remember it is often hard to hear a persons tone of voice or the way they try to put things.. This is a open thread and even though I disagree with you I still respect it..

Lesser Planer Binding.. COnjuration :Control or summon an outsider..
Greater Planer Binding.. Conjuration: Paralyze outsider or Summon outsider.
Gate Conjuration: Summon forth a balor..

Okey dokey now's.. Lesser planer bindnig is going to last alot longer because there a weaker creature.. and you are able to keep them here upon this plane of existence unlike their own. Greater Planer Binding is a greater form of this spell opening a gate and summoning forth a creature here.. This is a more powerful CREATURE taht you are trying to keep upon this realm that is not there own. Just like reading several fantasy books.. CLerics or wizards summoning powerful creatures no matter how strong weaken them.. Think of Rastlin,Elminster and several other wizards.. Well.. Elminser is pretty much a god.. Well hes my god if anything XD! But as well.. Then with the spell Gate.. you are summoning a very powerful creature to this realm that is very much unlike theres.. Its a battle of wills for all of these and its a very vallid and good reason why the durations are so short for these higher more powerful summoning spells..

You are not a form of a god with unlimited power to keep such a powerful creature on this realm that is why the durations are short..

[Peregrinus]

You know what, nevermind, since basically any idea I put forward is gonna be automatically contradicted by you two, its not even worth my time to try and make an positive argument, as it won't change any minds.

Please lock and delete this entire thing, as right now I'm just plain annoyed at the lack of constructive critisism outside of "no, you're wrong, its fine."

[Jimmy]

Please lock and delete this entire thing, as right now I'm just plain annoyed at the lack of constructive critisism outside of "no, you're wrong, its fine."

You're joking right? They may disagree but the majority of the posts have put forth their opinions and perspectives on this subject quite well. I can see where both sides come from due to this well constructed back and forth debate. Leaving me, basically, on the fence. And trust me, hearing that from me is extremely rare.

[Peregrinus]

After a good nights sleep where I'm not so tired and cranky anymore, please just ignore my last post... however, I still feel that most folks here are being contrary just to be contrary, but that's probably just me.

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In relation to the Planer Binding spells, first, let's make one thing clear, the PnP DnD summon spells bear no resemblance to any of the summon spells in NWN. In PnP, normal summons have a duration of 1 rnd/lvl, the Planer spells have an XP cost, and are handled completely differently than in NWN. These spells have no real bearing on the discussion.

Also note, I'm not thinking of Gate, Gate is powerful enough on its own, and nobody in their right mind would want a Balor around any longer than absolutely nessisary.

Ok, here's what I'm hearing, the planer spells, because they get a more powerful creature than a summon monster of the same level, are fine with a duration of 1/rnd a lvl. Meanwhile, I find that Greater Planer Binding, a level 8 spell, is too weak because the duration is to short. Here's the problem we run into, how does the Ancient Elemental you summon from Summon Monster VIII compair to the stuff you get from Greater Planer Binding? Unfortunately, the monsters are nowhere close to the PnP creatures, so how does the respective CR compair to each other? Can someone with access to the toolset (at work, so I can't do it myself) look each up and compair the respective CRs?

Now, a final note, if you are really stuck on the "bending a creature to your will" idea of the Planer spells, why should you have as much trouble controlling a Balor, a CR 20 demon lord as you would the less creature summoned by Greater Planer Binding? Perhaps a compromise would be to put Greater Planer at a 1 trn/lvl, which increases its use, but still puts a significant limit on it...

[Crimson Knightmare]

Lol Poor poor Falson XD! Dont take offense to this stuff.. Im just giving oppinions and other thoughts about this topic because of course.. Jeh said to prove the two points..

I find that Greater Planer Binding, a level 8 spell, is too weak because the duration is to short.

Look at the creature attack and ac, the summon you bring forth.. Then keep in mind in my original post.. Perhaps reread it.. Erm.. I might as well just retype it since it would be to hard to reread it.. Lesser planer binding is going to last alot longer.. because yourbringing a weaker form of creature upon this plane.. Then Greater Planer Binding.. Your bringing a STRONGER! Form of a creature upon this plane.. NWN does a bad job weakining a wizard EVEN A SORCERER when they cast such powerful spells.. As like most fantasy books, ones by R. A. Salvatore. He does a good job on summoining monsters from another plane.. No matter how powerful the wizard is.. Or cleric for that matter.. Cadderly summoining a demon.

Please Falson try to understand what im saying.. You are not a god.. You can not hold such a powerful creature upon this plane that is unlike there own.. Lets see if im going to have to retype this again..

Also remember.. we are not arguing just because its you.. But we both have high lvl wizards... And we both agree on the negative on your subject


Another side note }: ) Why empower wizards and sorcerers.. Improve the other classes for christs sake