The duration of the shapechange spell has been nerfed to the point where it has become pointless. Why?
For the record, I am very very disappointed.
I was happy that the bug where you regained your hit points back every 10 minutes was fixed, but this latest effort is pointless and ruins the enjoyment I have of stomping around in the Dragon shape. Now, I can barely stomp across one map before the spell wears out! What's the point of that? It should last as long as a spell resistance spell and most other buffs if it's to be of any use and you can always be dispelled, which the Koa'lisk are so good at doing. So what was the point of nerfing it so bad?
Sorry, I wouldn't normally complain about anything you guys do, but this got on my ghost and makes me want to go play elsewhere.
Redder
Shapechange
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Redder
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Shapechange
~Darkness is only light of the Light~
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**By Order of the 12th Ray, the Violet Flame**
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**By Order of the 12th Ray, the Violet Flame**
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Re: Shapechange
*sniffs*Redder wrote:Sorry, I wouldn't normally complain about anything you guys do, but this got on my ghost and makes me want to go play elsewhere.
Smells like someone's burning out. Bugger.
Rugnar Maydur
Adept of the Whirling Serpent
"Bluddy 'ell!"
Adept of the Whirling Serpent
"Bluddy 'ell!"
Re: Shapechange
I think the answer's right there.Redder wrote:yadda yadda yadda... the enjoyment I have of stomping around in the Dragon shape. Now, I can barely stomp across one map before the spell wears out!
Use shapechange when you need to - it's called a tactical choice.
It was done because untouchable forms (I refer to builds along the lines of druid 19/monk 1 that give shifted forms an ac nigh on 50, with full buffs - shadowshield, stoneskin, improved invis, and all the rest - full monk attack bonuses doing around 30 damage per attack, at an attack bonus in the 30s, has full true seeing, is immune to mind spells, sneak attacks and critical hits - depending on the form used) only go against the balance of the server, especially when said forms involve themselves in PvP. No one likes to enter a fight that even the most powerful (non-shifted) characters do not even have a chance to land a damaging blow in. It has been abused any number of times in the past, and it was discussed a number of times - it is only now that the decision was taken to alter it.
In its current altered form, it is without a doubt still one of the most powerful abilities available, and should last long enough for a fight or two, given that said form is immune to practically all damage and can lay waste to any creature on the server without fear of being hurt. With all things considered, the impact should be minimal, and now anyone that may be faced with the prospect of going against a form such as this might have a slim chance of damaging, if not winning a fight. And it also adds a sense of danger to a fight now - where is the fun if you know you are immune to everything?
In its current altered form, it is without a doubt still one of the most powerful abilities available, and should last long enough for a fight or two, given that said form is immune to practically all damage and can lay waste to any creature on the server without fear of being hurt. With all things considered, the impact should be minimal, and now anyone that may be faced with the prospect of going against a form such as this might have a slim chance of damaging, if not winning a fight. And it also adds a sense of danger to a fight now - where is the fun if you know you are immune to everything?
It's just a game...
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JaeEleutheria
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If the problem is balance, then perhaps changing other aspects of the spell might be a better choice? Time limit would be the easiest way of fixing this problem you see, yes, but it also ruins the fun of the spell for role-playing purposes.
And as the above person asked, does this affect the shifter class shapeshifts or the druids' wild shape?
And as the above person asked, does this affect the shifter class shapeshifts or the druids' wild shape?
Heya Redder
Let me take a stab at an answer. I am one of the people who voted in favor of the shorter duration, and I will tell you what my reasoning was:
In short, Shapeshift was allowing a caster to out-fight a fighter.
But first, a stray tangent
The most important element of casters in D&D is that they have limited uses for their powers. So while fireball can do more damage in a round than a fighter could, it can not do it every round. They pay for their higher peak output with a lower average output.
I think it is very debateable how well this works in a pseudo-persistant online game. Some days I like it, some days I don't. The end result is, casters inevitably have the edge in PvP and boss fights. Anything we did that would give melee a "fair shot" would mean that the the caster's limited use aspect was meaningless. If two characters are equally strong, why would you ever pick one with use limitations? You wouldn't.
The alternative I could offer would be, lower the damage output of all spells to be inline with the melee characters per-round damage, but remove all use restrictions. This is basically what games like EQ2 and WoW do. They set a standard damage output for a character level ("level 1 characters should do 10 damage / round, level 10 characters should do 50 damage / round).
However, this "peak vs average" concept does work for the most part at least. It's an interesting idea and leads to an interesting gameplay dynamic. I'm not sure I hate it, but it is a massive headache because there is no standard amount of damage everything should do. Like I said, it is debateable, some days I like it, some days I don't. It is interesting. But all that aside, the amount of effort required to change it is prohibitive, so like it or not, we're stuck with it.
Now, finally, something about shapeshift
Melee based classes put everything into AC, and AB. It's what they spend every one of their levels towards. And, if the mechanics are working as they should, they should get something for it.
By shapeshifting, the caster was able to get the melee higher average damage output (it was actually higher than most melees) without sacrificing the higher peak damage eitjer. With (the old) shapeshift, the best AC and AB are available to a caster. He can stay in that form almost indefinately. This comes very cheap, he doesn't give up anything except perhaps discipline. He can have all of the melee power a fighter would have (plus a little more) and the spells besides.
How did we decide that shapeshift was too strong? Emperically. I have played casters and melees. I have fought in shapeshifted form besides a melee. I have watched (as a DM) as shapeshifted characters fought in the same circumstances. The fact that shapeshift outperforms melee is, to me, undeniable.
We have seen this in the game for a long, long time. Virtually everyone has used it. And thats fine. Nothing irritates me more than someone telling me I am lame for using one of my skills, be it knockdown or sneaking or spell casting. Players should not be asked not to use their powers as some sort of "honor system". The mechanics should be altered.
Of course there is going to be a little unrest. If people weren't using it agressively, there would be no reason to change it. It only stands to reason that they will be a little peeved when it changes. There is really no good solution that I can see on how to minimize that. I can only promise you that, it is nothing personal, and that we value and respect you. It is just something that needs to be done, and I am sorry that -anyone- has to feel the brunt of it.
However! Nothing we ever do is unappealable. If you feel you can make a good case that shapeshift is not too powerful, that it is balanced, that the change is not necessary - please go ahead. It is your game too afterall. So. What is the case for returning it back to the old duration?
Let me take a stab at an answer. I am one of the people who voted in favor of the shorter duration, and I will tell you what my reasoning was:
In short, Shapeshift was allowing a caster to out-fight a fighter.
But first, a stray tangent
The most important element of casters in D&D is that they have limited uses for their powers. So while fireball can do more damage in a round than a fighter could, it can not do it every round. They pay for their higher peak output with a lower average output.
I think it is very debateable how well this works in a pseudo-persistant online game. Some days I like it, some days I don't. The end result is, casters inevitably have the edge in PvP and boss fights. Anything we did that would give melee a "fair shot" would mean that the the caster's limited use aspect was meaningless. If two characters are equally strong, why would you ever pick one with use limitations? You wouldn't.
The alternative I could offer would be, lower the damage output of all spells to be inline with the melee characters per-round damage, but remove all use restrictions. This is basically what games like EQ2 and WoW do. They set a standard damage output for a character level ("level 1 characters should do 10 damage / round, level 10 characters should do 50 damage / round).
However, this "peak vs average" concept does work for the most part at least. It's an interesting idea and leads to an interesting gameplay dynamic. I'm not sure I hate it, but it is a massive headache because there is no standard amount of damage everything should do. Like I said, it is debateable, some days I like it, some days I don't. It is interesting. But all that aside, the amount of effort required to change it is prohibitive, so like it or not, we're stuck with it.
Now, finally, something about shapeshift
Melee based classes put everything into AC, and AB. It's what they spend every one of their levels towards. And, if the mechanics are working as they should, they should get something for it.
By shapeshifting, the caster was able to get the melee higher average damage output (it was actually higher than most melees) without sacrificing the higher peak damage eitjer. With (the old) shapeshift, the best AC and AB are available to a caster. He can stay in that form almost indefinately. This comes very cheap, he doesn't give up anything except perhaps discipline. He can have all of the melee power a fighter would have (plus a little more) and the spells besides.
How did we decide that shapeshift was too strong? Emperically. I have played casters and melees. I have fought in shapeshifted form besides a melee. I have watched (as a DM) as shapeshifted characters fought in the same circumstances. The fact that shapeshift outperforms melee is, to me, undeniable.
We have seen this in the game for a long, long time. Virtually everyone has used it. And thats fine. Nothing irritates me more than someone telling me I am lame for using one of my skills, be it knockdown or sneaking or spell casting. Players should not be asked not to use their powers as some sort of "honor system". The mechanics should be altered.
Of course there is going to be a little unrest. If people weren't using it agressively, there would be no reason to change it. It only stands to reason that they will be a little peeved when it changes. There is really no good solution that I can see on how to minimize that. I can only promise you that, it is nothing personal, and that we value and respect you. It is just something that needs to be done, and I am sorry that -anyone- has to feel the brunt of it.
However! Nothing we ever do is unappealable. If you feel you can make a good case that shapeshift is not too powerful, that it is balanced, that the change is not necessary - please go ahead. It is your game too afterall. So. What is the case for returning it back to the old duration?
I think what gives a shapeshifted mage the over all advantage over melees is not the Shapeshift spell itself, but the pre-buffs put on before the shift. Sure, AB and damage might match or excel slightly over a melee class (I think it depends on the form, since they each have different special traits) but then there's the lack of disciplne which makes them vunerable against knockdown (which is commonly used and to excess) and then there's also the number of attacks per round to consider too. A wizard or sorcerer only ever get 2 attacks per round while most melees can get around 4-6 attacks per round. The way a mage makes up for their weaknesses in melee is with buff spells, like Improved Invisibility and other spells that add a concealment bonus or damage reduction.
So perhaps to offer an alternative, perhaps alter the mechanics so that spell buffs previous to the Shapeshift spell are dispelled so then the shapeshifted mage has only the creatures' primary traits (Like the irongolem's immunities or the red dragon's true seeing and spell resistence) to rely on for an advantage. Perhaps that would balance it out?
So perhaps to offer an alternative, perhaps alter the mechanics so that spell buffs previous to the Shapeshift spell are dispelled so then the shapeshifted mage has only the creatures' primary traits (Like the irongolem's immunities or the red dragon's true seeing and spell resistence) to rely on for an advantage. Perhaps that would balance it out?
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Peregrinus
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As I'm not a shifting caster (instead I prefer to focus on the mass damage spells as I'm sure everyone knows), I can't comment, though I think a lot of folks use it for a RP aspect over a powergamer aspect, at least in the encounters I've been a part of...
However, what I'd do is go ahead, shorten the duration (from what I gather it sounds like it got changed to 1 rnd/lvl), BUT give the shapechanged creature not just the special abilities but also the special attacks (in other words, Shapechange Red Dragon gives you the Red Dragon breath weapon).
Now, I don't dislike making this into a tactical choice to shapechange, I've seen a lot of characters that are basically built around buffing up then shapechanging, basically ignoring the purpose of the mage.
So we'll see how this works out, personally, I don't use it so I don't care.
However, what I'd do is go ahead, shorten the duration (from what I gather it sounds like it got changed to 1 rnd/lvl), BUT give the shapechanged creature not just the special abilities but also the special attacks (in other words, Shapechange Red Dragon gives you the Red Dragon breath weapon).
Now, I don't dislike making this into a tactical choice to shapechange, I've seen a lot of characters that are basically built around buffing up then shapechanging, basically ignoring the purpose of the mage.
So we'll see how this works out, personally, I don't use it so I don't care.
-Falson Almaran, sorcerer
Keeper of Dragonwatch
Initiate of the Kingseekers
Keeper of Dragonwatch
Initiate of the Kingseekers
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Kell
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Aaaand what exactly is the purpose of a mage...?Peregrinus wrote:Now, I don't dislike making this into a tactical choice to shapechange, I've seen a lot of characters that are basically built around buffing up then shapechanging, basically ignoring the purpose of the mage.
Why do we have the school transformation if transformation is not exactly the purpose of a mage...?
Nothing to add to the actual subject. I just want to make sure that people understand that polymorphing would not be an actual SPELL and a CHOICE mages can MAKE, if it wasn't the purpose that mages could DO these things.
Transformation is a school with a reason. We're talking about -mages- and not about -warlocks-.
Whether or not the implementations are justified and fair or not, is a totally different subject.
Kell Dy'ner, Archcriminal of Daris
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Peregrinus
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The purpose of a playing is not to powerbuild around one idea.
Its one thing to design a caracter focused around using shapechange spells, but from the viewpoint of shapechange and what folks are saying, a mage that focused on that basically sacrifices nothing and gain everything.
Limiting the duration makes shapechange into an option for encounters but not something you build an entire character around to the point where you exclude everything else.
I still think you should give them the special attacks of the specific forms.
Its one thing to design a caracter focused around using shapechange spells, but from the viewpoint of shapechange and what folks are saying, a mage that focused on that basically sacrifices nothing and gain everything.
Limiting the duration makes shapechange into an option for encounters but not something you build an entire character around to the point where you exclude everything else.
I still think you should give them the special attacks of the specific forms.
-Falson Almaran, sorcerer
Keeper of Dragonwatch
Initiate of the Kingseekers
Keeper of Dragonwatch
Initiate of the Kingseekers
Why not? That's just how some people like to play, and aslong as it doesn't affect someone else's gameplay, I fail to see the problem with it.Peregrinus wrote:The purpose of a playing is not to powerbuild around one idea.
Its one thing to design a caracter focused around using shapechange spells, but from the viewpoint of shapechange and what folks are saying, a mage that focused on that basically sacrifices nothing and gain everything.
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Kell
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Ah yeah, right. That's why there are so many mages who have spell focuses on evocation, including the metagamic feats to make them even more powerful, and that's also why mages don't always use the same type of spells (maxed firebrand anybody?) to do most damage.Peregrinus wrote:The purpose of a playing is not to powerbuild around one idea.
Powerbuilds aren't only achieved by creating polymorping mages who are specifically designed to beat people up transformed into a dragon. Surely, their buffs are good and all, but they do little damage. Mages have a low attack rate and even if you're polymorphed, it's not so much worth the issues, imho. It looks cool, but you can't do much more then slapping into the wind and be a good meatshield. That is, untill your buffs drop, because then you're screwed.
Yeah, it's powerful, but there's a reason why the most powerful mages barely polymorph. You do much more damage with spells.
If you want a good powerbuild mage, don't polymorph. It looks nice and scary, but imho isn't all -that- efficient. Although that's just my opinion. I always found transforming into things more a bother then anything else, since you're dispelled in the blink of an eye and your spellbook gets screwed as well.
Kell Dy'ner, Archcriminal of Daris
Taking a breather and I checked the forums... got a chuckle :)
hehehe, Sorry, I just... found that amusing. Also
Peregrinus wrote:I think a lot of folks use it for a RP aspect over a powergamer aspect, at least in the encounters I've been a part of...
...........
I've seen a lot of characters that are basically built around buffing up then shapechanging, basically ignoring the purpose of the mage.
hehehe, Sorry, I just... found that amusing. Also
I'm assuming the metagamic was a typo and not a freudian slip hehehe ;pKell wrote:... including the metagamic feats....